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A New Coin I Received Today

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2007  10:55 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Today I got a few new coins. Here is one.

Image Insert:
A-New-Coin-I-Received-Today


This is a 1781 Mexican 1 Reale in very high grade with just a trace of surface corrosion caused by salt water exposure. There are in fact small iron deposits inside some of the letters. It is silver. The weight is correct. The planchet was edged brfore it was struck.

Any comments?
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Irishraider's Avatar
United States
1454 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2007  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Irishraider to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, you collect the real ones as well as the counterfeits? This is a real one correct if I understood correctly? Do you buy the real ones from time to time so you will have a good comparison model?

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2007  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Irishraider Actually I do collect some real coins to "keep my hand in" so to speak. But in this case this coin is a COUNTERFEIT.

This coin is in fact a very recently made (2007) copy from China - State of the Art. HOT OFF THE PRESS. If I didn't know the forger, I might be fooled if I was using only a loupe and more conventional tests (i.e. weight, SG and production methods - namely strike and edging). If this coin was tumbled polished a bit and if the artificial toning was a shade better it would pass easily.

Just this weekend, I was discussing this most recent generation of forgeries with several dealers at a local coin show. One dealer who collects counterfeits, as I do, suggested that the dies may have been laser cut by a computer of some sort. Under very high magnifaction there are surface anomalies never seen on originals (even sea salvaged coins). They resemble very tiny rounded lumps forming a uniform texture over the entire surface. That of course translates to little tiny round dimples in the die surface. They resemble but are much smaller than the "spark erosion pits" seen on dies made by that technology. These are a step up from the cast dental plastic dies. The dealer indicated that the newer computer guided lasers are producing better models with much finer details than before. He also indicated that some counterfeiters are melting worn original coins to produce planchets for some of the counterfeits to defeat XRF testing.

Technology is getting scary.

It appears that the Chinese forgers are making rapid progress in perfecting their die making techniques and soon this flood of forgeries will start to pass readily onto the secondary market.

If you notice, Krause values for this particular coin are LOW. It is a very common part of a series that is not too popular. So it will be unlikely to ever be sent in for authentication to a TPG. But what better place to perfect your forgery skills than an area few if any collectors notice or take seriously. I presume the forgers will move on to higher ticket items as they get better.

Perhaps they already have!
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2007  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's amazing how good the forgers are getting.
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Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2007  3:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, this isn't good...
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humpybong's Avatar
Australia
1262 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2007  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add humpybong to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

It is almost getting to the stage where we will be unable to tell the real ones from the copies.

That is a bit of a worry for our hobby!
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Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2007  11:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The dentils would still make me worry. If you look at the top of the portrait - you can see various widths between them.
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Mila_cent's Avatar
United States
1767 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2007  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mila_cent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How does one tell a coin is a 'counterfeit' at first glance?
This troubles me. I'm confussed. Thanks.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2007  01:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mila_cent - One point I hoped to make was that from the scan there is actually no way to tell this is a fake. It is an EXACT copy of an original coin that does exist someplace. The reason I knew it was fake was because the seller is known to me and he is part of the counterfeit ring operating in China. The real problem is that if this same coin is being sold by a US based seller - there is NO WARNING.

In person, an expert can easily detect the surface irregularities using a 30X binocular microscope - but a hand held 10X loupe may not be adequate by any means.

I also posted it as a simple warning to KNOW who you are dealing with and to ALWAYS check out what you receive.
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Snooba's Avatar
Australia
1360 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2007  01:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Snooba to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob:

I don't know if you ever watched "Get Smart" when it was on television. But there is one memorable line when Maxwell Smart turns to Agent 99 and says: "If only he'd used his powers for niceness instead of evil!". And that always reminds me that I am very grateful you use your phenomenal knowledge for "niceness" instead of fraudulent profit. In other words, thank heavens you are one of the good guys!

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Frankallen's Avatar
United States
57 Posts
 Posted 01/21/2007  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Frankallen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob....You are a Master at this!! It is so nice of you to give your opinons here on this Forum!! Thanks!!

Frank
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