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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,637 |
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Valued Member
United States
57 Posts |
Hello everyone, I need some help on this Coin please. I just bought it and have a few questions. First and foremost does it look to be Authentic? Also on one of the photos below there seems to be a small glob of metal on the back (arrow pointing to it), anyone has any idea what that is? Oh yea, it weighs 26.88 grams. There is also some fading of letters on the reverse (have arrows pointing to it)....Could that be just a bad worn out die? . In hand it is a very nice coin, just trying to educate myself.Hopefully someone can help me out on these questions. I would appreciate it very much.  Thanks, Frank     Edited by Frankallen
01/19/2007 11:43 am
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Valued Member
United States
156 Posts |
It appears to be real The M with the small o above it is the mexico city mint mark the FM is the initials of the gold and silver assayer in that time period. It could be counterfiet but I doubt it...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
While I'm no expert, I'm thinking that it may be a fake. The strange area near the date may be the result of a poor casting. The fields look off too.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Frankallen Could I ask if the coin in question was purchased recently from China?
The dies appear to be transfer dies of the sort used by the Beijing group. There are numerous small raised "spots" on the surface like the one at the tip of the King's nose. The one on the left ribbon is just a huge example of one. They represent surface holes in the die and on a hardened steel die - they are often called rust. But here - they look like small voids in a dental plastic die.
I am also concerned because of the "artificial" toning. The King's neck seems to show the effects most clearly. There is an area that looks like a chemical was applied to darken the surface but they missed a spot because of something (oil?) on the surface. Looks like Charlie didn't apply his artificial tanning cream evenly.
I also see some curious lines on the surface. Like long parallel scratches. These could be "adjustment marks" if they are incuse but I would get suspicious if they are raised.
The area near the date and the corresponding area on the other side opposite the date looks like a tapered planchet. HOWEVER, the Chinese forgers know how to duplicate that type of feature by artificially tapering the blank. But here they may have hammered the planchet to thin it out - that would be wrong of course.
I know I have tried to cover the concept of a tapered planchet elsewhere - but it refers to a THIN area in the planchet caused by irregular rolling of the silver sheet before the blanks are cut. This thin area often covered with surface splits (like I see here) was rather normal on originals when the silver ingots cooled too much during the rolling. The thin part of the planchet does not get struck up because the dies can not get close enough together to fill the details in the die.
Have you checked the edge detail? Are the figures identical and uniformly spaced? Are there two overlaps properly positioned?
The weight is good - but that may simply mean you have a silver forgery. I would advise you to get the coin checked by someone who is an expert in the series.
Edited by swamperbob
01/19/2007 11:34 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
57 Posts |
Bob, I bought this coin from "Staples Numismatics, Inc." off of ebay. Staples, has a very good name on ebay with a 99.9% rating.Of course I have waited too long to send back. I would not and have never bought from China. The edge around the coin seems to be distorted, some of the squares and O's are not uniform.There is also a gash on the edge of the coin. My camera gives off a weird color cast,actually the coin is a very nice dark silver color... Thanks for the help so far. Frank Edited by Frankallen
01/20/2007 6:05 pm
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Valued Member
United States
57 Posts |
Edited by Frankallen
01/20/2007 1:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The new scans show a far better looking color and make it look much more "real".
The edge scans are very good as well and they do perhaps answer a couple of questions. The top picture with the gash shows what I would call very uniform segments - looks real. The gash is a post strike feature - possibly a test cut. Does it expose any change of color?
The last two scans seem to show the overlaps. Are they taken of different parts of the perimeter OPPOSITE one another? If so the edging looks real. If they are the same spot - then what does the side exactly opposite look like?
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Valued Member
United States
57 Posts |
Bob, First of all, I want to Thank You for all the time you have put in helping me with this Coin! .I appreciate it very much! When I first started with Spanish Colonials mostly 2 Reales, I really didn't know how complicated sometimes it could get,but you being here helps matters a lot! We are very Lucky to have you as a Member here.  The question you ask about the color inside the gash, it looks to me to be the same color or material. Here are some more edge photos around the coin. Hope this helps. Thanks, Frank  Bob, are these adjustment marks?    Edited by Frankallen
01/21/2007 08:41 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Frank - Adjustment marks were rarely made on the edge of the coin because any irregularities in the perimeter of the punched blank would make it slip when placed in the edger and prevent the machine from working properly. That is also the reason the coins were edged BEFORE the strike. Once struck the coins were often out of round (because like a ball of "Play Doh" squeezed between your hands) there was NO COLLAR DIE to prevent irregular spreading. The edger depended upon the blank being perfectly round. Therefore adjustments were made by placing the blank flat on a surface and filing silver off one or both faces of the blank before edging. Various grades of files were used - resulting in some very deep gouges at times. The surviving gouges which remain AFTER the strike are called "adjustment marks". The following skectch attempts to schematically portray what the edging apparatus does. Image Insert: The KEY to a real edge is the absolute symmetry of one side with the other. The designs on points exactly opposite one another were going onto the coin at EXACTLY the same time. So what happens on one side happens on the opposite - almost invariably. Knowing how the design gets on the coins usually makes it easy to spot incorrect patterns. Something does not make sense to me about the edge on your coin. I took all the pictures and placed them side by side to try to sort them all out. Are you flipping the coin over between shots? The final scan you posted appears to show an overlap of about 8 segments in length that starts centered on the edge and then runs off to one side. Yet on your earlier scans I see what appears to be two images of another shorter far more well centered overlap. If these are the only two overlaps on the coin - the coin is a counterfeit with NO ROOM FOR doubt. If there are 4 overlaps (two identical pairs), it could point to a blank popping out of the apparatus partially completed. This happened but not often. There was a retaining lip on the flat bar dies to prevent pop outs. The way a pop out happened was at a chip in the lip or when the edge of the blank was severely tilted. But re-inserting a partially edged blank would disrupt production and slow the entire process. Later edgers used a longer pair of dies that edged multiple blanks at one time - BUT in the colonial era and up until the 1840s at least blanks were edged ONE AT A TIME.
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Valued Member
United States
57 Posts |
Bob....Here are 2 photos that are on opposite sides of the coin. Hope this helps. Thanks so much for your patience Frank  opposite sides of the coin.  Edited by Frankallen
01/21/2007 6:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4589 Posts |
Based on what I have learned from swamperbob this weekend involving the striation marks and the rim I think ts a counterfeit. Just testing my self here so don't take my thought to seroiusly swamperbob is the source for the right answers
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Frank - that pair of overlaps looks good.
Now if you can - take a picture of the side exactly opposite the bottom scan in the series you posted Today at 8:37:09 AM.
You may have one of the planchets that was run through the edger twice.
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Valued Member
United States
57 Posts |
Bob, here is the opposite side of the photo. I have really noticed that the rim of this coin is boogered up some. Thanks, Frank  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Frank I now think I know what the gouge may be from. If that is the point opposite where the edge runs off the coin - the gouge is most likely evidence of the coin slipping out of the edger. The only problem with that scenario is that it points to an edge die that lacks a retaining lip (or the gouge is an imprint of the lip)! It also looks to me like the damage is OVERLAID on the edge designs NOT vice versa. Since the pop out had to occur BEFORE the coin was fully edged (otherwise why put it back in for a second run), then the area immediately AFTER the gouge (look both ways) has to have the edge cut OVER the gouge.
I hope that is clear.
Try to envision how the coin would look before - during - and after traveling through the machine twice.
If you have a binocular micro-scope please look at the gouge to see if you can see if you can establish a priority for the damage.
The only chance you really have that the coin is real is if the edge design compresses the edge of the gouge indicating the edge die ran OVER the gouge when the coin was edged for the second time. The second edging would start and stop where the MATCHED PAIR of overlaps occurs.
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Valued Member
United States
57 Posts |
Bob....This sure was fun trying to figure out this Coin!!! Regardless whether it's Counterfeit or not I'm going to keep it. It seems more special to me now.. You really educated me on the process they used to mint these very special coins. Thank You so much for taking the time out of your schedule,to help me try and figure this coin out.  Frank |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Frank - Thank you for the compliment. I am trying to get people to appreciate both the originals and the counterfeits. Both can be works of art. If you look long enough at any coin even a fake - you can come to appreciate the work that it takes to make the item.
But of more importance is the protection that knowledge provides for the hobby. Once people can recognize a fake - it is no longer a danger.
Keep your eyes open.
There are two new Chinese forgers posting a wide range of fakes tonight including a pair of pre-1800 US dollars.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,637 |
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Posted 01/19/2007 3:58 pm
