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Large Cents (1845, 1848, 1849, 1851): Varying Weights Worry

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MisterEarl's Avatar
United States
5 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2012  7:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MisterEarl to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello all,

I am quite new to coin collecting, having recently become interested in the large U.S. cents of the 19th century.

I started my collection a few weeks ago with a modest purchase through ebay of a lot of four coins. I put them in a nice, new Dansco album and thought my collection was well underway.

However, I've done a lot of reading of late and have discovered that counterfeit U.S. coins (mainly from China) are commonly found on the Internet, particularly in ebay auctions. One warning I've commonly seen was to avoid auctions where the seller claims that they aren't coin experts, that the coins were bought at an estate sale, that the buyer should judge the coin for himself or herself. Oops! Those were almost the exact words in the listing of the coins that I bought!

Now, I have this nagging worry that I may have bought counterfeit coins, which sure takes the fun out of owning those cents. So, I've gone back and taken a very detailed look at the four large cents. I've measured the four coins, weighed them, examined their edges with a loupe, and photographed them with a macro lens.

The edges look fine to me; I see no indication of an edge line indicating two halves put together.

My main concern is the varying weights of the four coins. (I believe my measured weights are accurate; I put a modern nickel on my digital scale and it came back as 4.99 grams.) The Red Book tells me that the standard weight for these large cents is 10.89 grams, and that the standard diameter is 27.5 mm.

My coins have a significant amount of variance from the standard weight as well as a wide variance amongst the individual coins. Is this typical for worn large cents of this time period, or is it an indication of a likely counterfeit? I sure would appreciate any of your comments and opinions.

Below are photographs of my four coins along with their respective weights and dimensions:

Large-Cents-1845,-1848,-1849,-1851:-Varying-Weights-Worry

1845. Weight 10.53 gm.; diameter 27.67 mm.

Large-Cents-1845,-1848,-1849,-1851:-Varying-Weights-Worry

1848. Weight 10.26 gm.; diameter 27.51 mm.

Large-Cents-1845,-1848,-1849,-1851:-Varying-Weights-Worry

1849. Weight 10.20 gm.; diameter 27.69 mm.

Large-Cents-1845,-1848,-1849,-1851:-Varying-Weights-Worry

1851. Weight 10.63 gm.; diameter 27.74 mm.

Note the varying weights of the four coins; and all of the weights are significantly different from the nominal 10.89 grams. I've also noticed that the text "One Cent" on the reverse of the 1848 coin is a fatter font. Is that typical?

Thanks again for your help. Perhaps I'm worrying excessively; but as I said, I'm a beginner and still learning. If I did get bad coins, I hope to at least gain some useful knowledge from the experience.

Regards,
Earl


Pillar of the Community
fioti's Avatar
United States
4212 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2012  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They look good to me, but I'm out of my element. Good luck with that '48, Newcomb has 46 varieties listed. The small date is a known counterfeit.
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Kopper Ken's Avatar
United States
3402 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2012  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ME:

The wear on the coins looks natural. The small obv. gouge on the front of the '48 may account for the lower weight on that one. I don't believe the weight variances are significant.

1845: (10.89-10.53)/10.89*100= 3.31% deviation from the expected

1848 = 5.79% deviation

1849 = 6.34% deviation

1851 = 2.39% deviation

These could be explained by planchet variations.

Kopper Ken
Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  02:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
, MisterEarl!

Large cents are not commonly counterfooted.

I've had hundreds of LC, and I see nothing here that is suspicious.

I suspect the 1848 is just oddly worn.
Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  02:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any LC collector can tell you diameters vary all over the place. I've never seen an album where they fit correctly.
New Member
MisterEarl's Avatar
United States
5 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterEarl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Thanks fioti, Kopper Ken, and biggfredd for the reassurance that my coins visually look genuine and that my measurements are within expected variance for weight and diameter. That helps to ease much of my apprehension that I bought counterfeits.

I have a lot to learn about Large Cents. I have a couple of standard references on order (including Lapp and Silberman's United States Large Cents, 1793-1857) but haven't received the books yet. That's why I went ahead and posted here on the Coin Community Forum; I was just busting with doubts and questions!

I'll begin looking for some of the other standard references as well. I didn't realize there were so many varieties in these coins.

As for Large Cents not being commonly counterfeited, I still think I will have to watch out, particularly if I buy any more coins on ebay. In my research on counterfeits, I came across a very interesting (and scary!) article on a Chinese counterfeiting operation.

Since I'm a brand new member, I don't think I yet have permissions to add links to my postings. But if you google (use the double quotes around it) for the phrase "Inside a Chinese Coin Counterfeiting Ring", at the top of the search results you will find an article by Susan Headley that is a gallery of photos and texts in a sort of slide show presentation. Enter the gallery and go to page 15 (out of the 24) and you will see a photograph of a tray full of counterfeit Indian Head and Large Cents.

As a collector just starting out, this kind of news was pretty disheartening. I think I will buy from sources other than ebay for awhile, until I get a little more knowledgeable.

Regards,
Earl
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coins look good to me The weights seem a little low but not excessive. The 1848 is a later die state and the center of the rev is getting "mushy".
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with the above statements that I see nothing that would make me believe you have purchased counterfeit coins. They all look to be the correct design and everything looks like they should. I also believe the weight difference is within standards as it should be as well. I understand that coin collecting can be very scary when you are first starting out and then you find out about the area you really never considered before (the counterfeits of these coins) and believe me we have had to tell members before that they did buy counterfeits which is always something we hate to have to do. I say you did alright and you can do what you should have been able to do all along and that is enjoy your coins like they deserve to be enjoyed
Pillar of the Community
Kopper Ken's Avatar
United States
3402 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2012  08:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ME:

Make sure you read the books and maybe join EAC (Early American Coppers). Get the books by Wright (Mid dates), Grellman (Late dates) and Noyes (Early to mid). Well worth it. I've cherry picked quite a few varieties. The books are expensive, over $300, maybe cheaper on the web somewhere.

As to counterfeits, there are quite a for coppers. I know I have some for reference. These are getting better where they don't mismatch the head/ lettering style with the date or reverse. The sharp unrounded lettering and weight can usually set these apart. Many are not marked "copy"and if carried around for awhile in a pocket, providing for a little wear, thay would be more of a problem as an EF than a Mint State coin.

Keep coppering,

KK
New Member
MisterEarl's Avatar
United States
5 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2012  09:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterEarl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Hello all,

I would like to thank everyone for the opinions on my four large cents and for the great advice for future collecting. I was really worried about counterfeits, but I feel much better now about the four coins that make up the start of my large cent collection. I can see I have much to learn though.

I think the old adage I see everywhere is: Buy the book before you buy the coin.

As I had mentioned earlier, I had already ordered Lapp and Silberman's book on large cents. I have also taken Kopper Ken's advice and ordered the Noyes reference as well. (You're right about the books being expensive. Ouch!)

However, I think my next purchase of large cents will be a bit more informed and hopefully I won't be posting quite such panic-stricken inquiries to the forum in the future.

Thanks again for all the help! This is exciting and interesting stuff, isn't it?

Regards,
Earl
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