Another New Chinese Forger To Get Familiar With

There may be some Chinese merchants that do not sell fakes - but the best I have seen are the ones that at least provide a warning. You do need to remember that it is not illegal in Red China to make artistic copies of old coins. I am unsure of the required disclosures "if any" but I know they are not required to mark their product. They do not consider it counterfeiting since the coins are not used in commerce.

The existance of the better class (the under the counter "real" coins you referred to) points to the absolute need for more educated collectors and less greedy collectors.

I place a lot of the blame on collectors who think they are getting a bargain by taking advantage of someone selling a coin for less than it is worth. The old addage "You get what you pay for" should apply to coin collecting. I think the current mindset stems in part from unscrupulous dealers who offer customers far less than coins are really worth to make BIG PROFITS. This dishonesty trickles down so that everyone expects BIG PROFITS and great bargains.

How does stealing a valuable coin from an unknowing customer vary from taking advantage of that same greed by selling a counterfeit to an uneducated buyer?

I see both frauds as two sides to the same coin.

When I buy coins or sell coins I try to remain honest and operate on a very small margin.

Thanks for the post. I am definitely getting better at spotting the fakes now.

I heard one person tell me that they have a dealer in China that they deal with on a regular basis and that he is honest. This particular person is an expert on various Asian coins and has quite a collection. I still wouldn't want to take the chance, though.

I never buy from a collector in China. Too many forgeries and too hard to detect. On ebay if the seller is in china, I disregard the auction completely not matter how good a deal it sounds like.

CalloftheHauntedMaster Sorry to hear that you have been scammed on the resale of a forgery by another seller.

But for everyone else - that is precisely my point - that every collector using ebay had better get personally familiar with what the Chinese fakes look like. If you don't you WILL get taken - I can guarantee that with almost 100% certainty.

The first response after being taken is often - How do I get my money back? Forget about ebay or anyone else helping you - they won't usually. So, after that sinks in WHAT HAPPENS?

All too many collectors TRY TO TAKE SOMEONE ELSE.

It is a very sad state of affairs but it happens ALL the time. Some sellers re-list the item as a counterfeit and try to get a couple dollars back. That is at least HONEST. Others who are less scrupulous, list the counterfeit as a "Contemporary" counterfeit, hoping to get more back - but quite often they know that the coin is a Modern Junk forgery not a legitimate "Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit".

The next step taken by even less honest people, is to list the coin as possibly real with some weasel worded disclaimer like - this may not be real. They are simply hoping another amateur repeats the same error they made. These guys are scum.

The final step that the true slimy scumbags take is to alter the counterfeit to make it look better and then to list it with no warning or disclaimers. These guys are CROOKS period. But it happens all the time. The easist is a chemical dip followed by a uniform chemical retoning. I have even seen sellers add fake chops to cover some of the more obvious problems. On one 1783 8R the re-seller carefully tooled off many of the larger die lumps that ID'd the fake before retoning. I have even seen them tumble polished to change wear and struck to add some "old" circulation damage.

So - to those of you who don't look at Chinese Auctions - please start doing so. Look closely at the pictures and at least get a mental image of things to avoid. Make up a list of faked dates and types (especially those types that you might want to collect). Get familiar with what is out there. If you don't you too may be writing complaining about getting taken.

Anyone wanting a quick second opinion - just write to me. I will reply to as many as time permits.

houston_guy462004 Not at all an easy question. After nearly 50 years, I can still have problems with "discovery varieties". But they still do come up - although not as often as they used to.

What you really need to do is think about WHEN a counterfeit was made and which technologies were available and/or used at that time. As I would paraphrase a famous commercial - No technology before its time.

That may seem simple - but it is missed over and over again.

There are some very simple clues - one of the errors seen most often is a collared strike reeded edge forgery of a coin that was originally made in a screw press. That coin has to be a modern fake because collared strikes were a future technology while "Contemporary forgeries" were being made. A simple rule of thumb is a contemporary can not be made using newer materials or technologies than the ones that were available at the original date of manufacture.

This may seem simple, but I have seen honest, competent dealers offer German Silver contemporary counterfiets of Pillar Dollars. How likely is that? The last Pillar Dollar was made about 1772. The first trial strikes in German Silver were made in about 1835 or so. Therefore, how likely is it that a made for circulation Pillar Dollar was made in 1835 - about 67 years after the last real one was made? GS fakes are typically early numismatic counterfeits until you get to the period of Portrait 8Rs or US Bust Half Dollars.

In a similar vein, I saw a late 1640s Thaller offered as a contemporary but it was struck in a Sheffield Plate. That technology was not developed until 1771. The difference of 130 years is hard to believe.

White metal underweight fakes with ring die applied edges (reeds) are a technology that dates back to the 1940s or so. Therefore any coin not still circulating someplace in 1940 CAN'T be contemporary.

Perhaps you can think of it this way. First, know how the originals were made. What metals were used and how "precious" were those metals is a second issue. Lets say you find a platinum forgery of a gold 8R from Columbia. It is very likely that you do have a period forgery. But an underweight gold plated copy is Modern because electroplating technology was not developed until the 1850s or later.

Also consider the actual metal used. When silver was higher in value counterfeits were SHORT on silver. A counterfeit of a dollar made in the 1870s should NOT be full weight silver. When silver prices dropped on world markets in the 1890s things reversed. Full weight silver counterfeits of US Dollars became very common between 1890 and 1920.

Now how about weight? In the days when coins were based on their intrinsic value counterfeits tended to be close to originals in weight. Counterfeits that are under 90% of full weight are UNLIKELY in the 1820s but prevalent in the 1940s.

A cast copy is very hard to estimate for age directly. This is because a sand cast mold can still be made today. But a very well cast PLASTIC mold can not be older than the 1950s.

Exact copies of coins are also usually newer because technologies that make the best transfer of a feature are modern. Crude dies or molds copied from originals CAN be very old, but the metal used, edging technique and striking technology all add up to estimate actual age.

So there are numerous clues available - all you need to do is keep your eyes open.