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Tiny Bohemian Copper Coin

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Pillar of the Community

Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2012  2:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
One of my most recent coin purchases was a teensy tiny (13 mm diameter and very thin) one-sided very old looking copper coin. Probably worth the $2 I paid for it, just asking what it is
After some extensive Googling (as well as looking at the coin), I'm fairly sure that the legend (on the edge) is [FE]R:II.D.G.R.B - i.e. Ferdinand II of Bohemia. However, all the links I found referred to silver coins of various size, and this one was clearly copper (if about the smallest copper coin I've ever seen).
Unfortunately, the first two letters - as well as most of the central device - are covered by some kind of surplus metal (an error I'm all too often seeing on 17th and 18th century coins); still, enough remains that I'm fairly positive of the ruler/country identification (it does look like a Bohemian lion in the remaining parts of the central device). Also, the other side is completely blank but for a slight outward bulging almost exactly opposite where the lion should've been; I hope it actually was blank in the first place (as opposed to being worn smooth, which is unfortunately also a possibility).
As such, I'll be very interested in the possible date range for the coin, as well as where the date area is if any (in case enough of the date is left for identifying it, which currently actually seems likely). Actual name of the denomination would also be helpful so that I'll be able to use the NGC price guide (then again, it doesn't seem to list any denomination that could possibly refer to such a tiny copper coin).

So what, how?
January First-of-May


PS: No photo, sorry. I have such a crappy camera anyway that a photo would've been unlikely to give you more than just the coin's scale (i.e. what does that 13 millimeters looks like - hint: it's really teensy tiny).
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
651 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2012  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your description matches a 1/4 kreuzer of Bohemia (KM#280), struck in the name of Ferdinand II. This coin is uniface, though must be silver. Years 16Z1 (1621) and 16ZZ (1622).

If your coin was found buried, it is possible that it has a copper look. Especially coins with a lower silver content can have a copper appearance.
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2012  01:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks!
Numismaster describes that coin as "Obv: Crowned Bohemian lion left, 4 below, all in circle", which matches my coin as well (can't believe I haven't noticed the 4 before).
I think my coin is the 1622 version - fairly sure of it actually (as whatever it is, it isn't 1621). Cool - that would be the second oldest dated coin in my collection!
I'm still not getting why it's copper, though but I don't think it's counterfeit as it's too bad-looking (unless it's a contemporary one, which if confirmed would only push the value up even further).
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  06:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did say "crappy camera", didn't I? Well, my lack of experience in photographing such small objects didn't help much, either.

Okay, I did use the Image Resizer. Except hat only made it even more crappy... (And yes, that was my best photo - out of about fifteen attempts.)

In case you didn't get it: yeah, that's a 1940 nickel serving as a background (and scale). I did try photos without it, but none of them were ultimately better.

And in case you still want them... the photos

Tiny-Bohemian-Copper-Coin

Tiny-Bohemian-Copper-Coin
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34419 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2016  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How about a new pic january1may? Camera technology has improved substantially in the past 4 years.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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United States
188770 Posts
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Petrus's Avatar
Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2016  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Please try here:
http://herbison.com/www.someoldcoin...r/index.html

Can also be Ferdinand of Bavaria
FERdinandus secundus Dei Gratia Rex Bohemiae or Bavariae
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2016  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How about a new pic january1may? Camera technology has improved substantially in the past 4 years

When it comes to my cameras, camera technology has probably improved more between 2012 and 2013 than between 2013 and 2016. (To be fair, the camera I was using in 2012 dated back to 2005.)
The following pic is from November 2013, and I don't think I've made any better pics of this particular coin so far.

(I might try eventually, but my main camera ran out of battery in April, and I'm not sure if we've managed to find a new battery already.)

Tiny-Bohemian-Copper-Coin
Tiny-Bohemian-Copper-Coin

@Petrus - I actually checked there a few weeks ago. That collection explicitly ends in 1620, just barely too early for my example.
It also doesn't seem to have much of the very small denominations anyway.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34419 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2016  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@january1may, having now spent an evening working on this, I find myself not much closer to an attribution. I agree that the inscription seems to be from Ferdinand II. Perhaps a 4 Heller explains that number four? However, I don't see the double tails that typically form a number "8" on the lion rampant that is diagnostic for Bohemia/Prague. To me, you coin's image looks more like the panther rampant of Graz.

Here is a slightly lightened pic of the obv. I plan to keep at this for a little longer though--I like a challenge!



Tiny-Bohemian-Copper-Coin
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34419 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2017  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes sorry, but I'm reanimating this zombie post once again.

Having spent more time trying to identify this coin than perhaps any other that is not in my collection, I have failed once again. I recently purchased Barhfeldt's book on the early coinage of the Brandenburgs and was hoping for a hit on your coin. Alas, still no match for me. Other than Barhfeldt, I have searched Krause, Saurma, Frynas, and Bonhoff. All to no avail.

@J1M, maybe a fresh set of pics would help a little? It really bugs me that I can't figure out what you have there. of course, I don't want to hog all of the glory so if someone else can figure out the correct attribution of this coin, please speak up!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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