Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsRoyal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors 300,000 items to help build your collection! Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Two Coins, One Celator?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 1,207Next Topic  
Bedrock of the Community
DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  8:45 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Ever since I got this Marcus Aurelius denarius, I've been looking for die matches, since the portrait has a distinctive style. I haven't found a die match, but the style of the portrait of these two is very similar. Both are Rome mint; mine is the bottom coin--do you suppose the same engraver made both dies?

Two-Coins,-One-Celator?
Moderator
Learn More...
echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  9:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just my impression, while there are some similarities with the lips and chin and hair. The eyes, nose and face are different. IMO they are not from the same person.
Pillar of the Community
jessvc1's Avatar
United States
2596 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jessvc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A few months ago on flickr I came across some photos with provincial coins made by the same engraver. I looked at the coins but still can't tell if they are from the same person. Is there a way they left a sign that they made the dies or is this judged by style alone?
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately not provable, nevertheless a good probability.
Post all theories to: "Style Alone". You should get a reply here in the CCF.
Pillar of the Community
Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  10:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with echizento. Too many differences with some similarities. While it might be nice to find a die match or coins engraved by the person, I think it may be impossible to tell for sure on these coins. I posted a Philip I provincial coin once before and bobbyhelmet found a die match for sale on CNG. Pure luck. I tried to purchase the coin, but, alas I was outbid. So I understand your desire to have a die match, but perhaps you will have to have some "luck" as well.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1549 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  03:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am never clear on how to separate the work one cutter on two different days from that of two cutters who were trained by the same master working side by side in the mint. In the case of die match finding other than the 'luck' method: You are right selecting a distinctive die since it makes screening candidates easier. Next just look at a few thousand coins and the matches will come. You are much more likely to find matches in rare issues since they tended to have been made by fewer dies.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/do...dielink.html
Pillar of the Community
stevex6's Avatar
3352 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  07:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stevex6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm pretty sure that they are not crafted by the same person ... the eyes alone are far too different to have been drawn/created by the same artist ...

=> the eye on the top portrait is drawn more realistically => looking forward

=> the eye on the lower portrait is drawn a bit more cruedly, looking to the side (more like you would draw a seagul's eye)

... when I myself sketch a face, I am pretty consistent with my basic "skills", so I doubt that the same artist created both of those coins.

NOTE => however, they are both beautiful coins

Edited by stevex6
04/18/2012 08:59 am
Bedrock of the Community
DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed--there is no way to prove the same artist was involved, outside of a signature. I have seen maybe a hundred Marcus Aurelius denarii from Rome--and have not yet found that elusive die match. Still, looking at the overall form versus minute, possibly random differences--the shape of the profiles, details of the nose and beard, the "startled" look of the eye, and the rendering of the hair may suggest as Doug observed--the influence of one master engraver mentoring his underlings. Stylistic clues are one way art historians group work into specific schools/workshops or even identify an artist who didn't sign his work--a common situation in ancient art.

Here is a good example of such stylistic influence, or perhaps even the work of one trained hand using an engraving tool. Take a look at how each engraver represents the hair as one larger circle topped by a half-moon. That certainly points to a shared technique, or perhaps just one artist's hand.

Two-Coins,-One-Celator?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1315 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  2:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Doucet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It could also be, that if they were made by the same hand, one die could've had minute flaws that forced the engraver to make some changes in his style. I see the similarities in the obv. but the rev. is quite a bit different.

Here are two commemoratives, Consia with a plume on helmet, that I thought could be by the same hand.

Two-Coins,-One-Celator?

Two-Coins,-One-Celator?
Bedrock of the Community
DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I see the similarities in the obv. but the rev. is quite a bit different.

It's just fun to wonder about these things. It could also be that dies were "touched up" by different artists, and it's quite possible that obverse/reverse dies were done by different hands.

And I also see the strong similarities on your two coins--especially on the facial and helmet details--it's actually closer than the two coins I pictured.
Pillar of the Community
chrsmat71's Avatar
United States
4981 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2012  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrsmat71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had to google the word "celator"....I learn something lurking here every time I visit!
  Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 1,207Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.34 seconds to rattle this change. Forums