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Chinese Counterfeits

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Pillar of the Community
larsdog's Avatar
United States
593 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2012  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsdog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
For a quick checkup use a magnet and a scale. Of course you would need to know what the coin weights first though.


I have a scale and a Red Book. My questions were:

1) What variation is expected in mint samples (I would think very little)
2) What percentage weight loss can be expected from heavy use? 5%?

I'm asking about a VERY specific group of coins (Wheats) and it seems that the best advice is to "read up" or become a specialist and create a collection of real coins and fakes. I don't WANT to be a specialist! I've been there and done that in a few areas of stamp collecting. It's interesting and rewarding, but coin collecting is a side hobby for me. I'm happy to "read up" on the subject, but what is the recommended source? Again, relating this to stamps (which I know far better than coins), if you asked me about Periodical stamps and were concerned about fakes I would tell you:
1) Check the perforations - all genuine stamps are perf 12. Most fakes are perf 11.
2) Look for clear letters of banknote name at bottom of PR1-PR7. Fakes will be blurry.
3) Look for "FALSCH" embedded in the design. Many fakes from Germany had an embedded word that means "FALSE" or "FAKE".
For more information on this topic, Doc. M. Pepper publishes 4 separate offerings:
a) The Regulars: A study of Regular Issues
b) The Facsimiles: A study of fakes, forgeries, and facsimiles (focus on facsimiles)
c) The Forgeries: A study of fakes, forgeries, and facsimiles (focus on forgeries)
d) The Proofs: A study of die proofs, plate proofs, and printings.

Can I at least get a suggestion for a reference book on Lincoln Wheats?
Valued Member
Australia
216 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2012  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter S Thomas to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Larsdog,

I'm just guessing here but I think 5% loss is a bit high.

Thought experiment here.
How much of the weight of a coin is actually contained in the raised detail?
I'd be say not a lot, maybe .5 to 1% of the total.
Now if your coin was worn completely flat, no detail at all, then I would expect the weight diff to be maybe 1%.

As for the diff between Unc/MS63 and EF/AU55 I'd think the weight diff would be in the order of 0.01 grams MAX. Probably a lot less.

Cheers
Pete
Pillar of the Community
larsdog's Avatar
United States
593 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2012  11:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsdog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Thought experiment here.
How much of the weight of a coin is actually contained in the raised detail?
I'd be say not a lot, maybe .5 to 1% of the total.
Now if your coin was worn completely flat, no detail at all, then I would expect the weight diff to be maybe 1%.


OK, fair enough. That makes sense. Thanks, Pete!

Can anyone suggest a good comprehensive guide to Wheats? Either a book or a web site. It would be nice to know what to look for. I have a 1943 steel penny that weighs OVER the specified weight. A good reference would tell me if that is normal (perhaps the amount of zinc coating varied by a few hundredths of a gram, or maybe somebody "re-coated" these things). I have a digital gram scale accurate to 0.1 grams, a magnet, and 4 loupes (10x, 20x, 30x, 60x). I just need to know what the "danger zone" is. Nobody would alter a $20 stamp to make a $25 fake. There is a $2 stamp that can be "processed" to appear as a $4500 stamp, but that deception is well know so I hardly ever see any offered. It is akin to the folks that "cut" the "S" mint mark off of any penny and "glue" it to a 1909 VDB. No reasonable person would pay top dollar for a 1909S VDB without checking it out.

However, the other early "S" mint varieties may be ripe for such a treatment, just as altering a $10 stamp to "create" a $50 stamp is common since getting a cert isn't hardly worth it - unless you KNOW these are commonly faked (and you care about what's in your collection). I just bought two early "S" mint wheats and plan to examine the mint mark VERY closely with the 60X loupe. Are there any books or web sites with additional guidelines/tips?
Edited by larsdog
05/21/2012 11:18 pm
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2012  01:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Went to an auction view day today (Tue 22nd May '12) - Status International.
I saw a lot (No. 5192) of 64 VERY deceptive Chinese dollar sized silver coins.

I have spoken to some Chinese people visiting from China. They said the the market demand for Chinese homeland silver coinage is expanding rapidly. The Chinese forgers are more than happy to satisfy that demand with THEIR products.

Apparantly, there is a bigger market in homeland China, for the fakers to satisfy with their deceptions, than to forge American dollar sized silver coins for the North American market.
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