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Do Full Red Coins Stay Red In A Slab?

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donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  10:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hey, just wondering if any of you have had a red coin in a slab for a long period of time... did the color change at all? I'm considering getting an IHC and I would like to know before bidding on any.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Slabs aren't airtight. No, you cannot trust a Red copper to stay that way in a slab. It might; it might not.

Your call. I don't buy Red copper.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  10:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NO.

However it is surprising how many uncirculated bronze coins from the 19th century still have a nice red metallic lustre.

If you don't want to slab such a gem, the only other alternative is to put them in acryllic screw capsules.
Actually, I do that with most of older top grade coins.
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beaglebailey's Avatar
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716 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  10:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add beaglebailey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I totally agree with the above posts. I don't want to pay a premium for a red IHC that I can't guarantee will stay red. I much prefer the chocolate brown and browns with some red undertoning.
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 Posted 05/29/2012  11:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add COMET to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The slab is not air tight so it really depends on how you store the coin. However, I do find many red cents developing carbon spots. Its a far worse fate than turning color.
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
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5854 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2012  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I usually stick with BN and RB copper. On some of the more inexpensive coins, I will be willing to go for RD coins. Like what others have said, copper can turn colors and acquire spots in the slab. I remember reading something about a certified 1963 PR-70 DCAM Lincoln that sold for, I think around $40,000. It eventually developed spots over the coin while in the slab and was eventually bought back by the grading service. The link below takes you to a Heritage lot where the coin is certified as being RD but the coin is not looking so RD anymore.
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...2&lotNo=7332
Edited by D0ubl3Eagle
05/30/2012 12:02 am
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cwb1877's Avatar
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 Posted 05/29/2012  11:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cwb1877 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've heard that TPG's won't guarantee color on copper coins anymore for this reason. Has anyone else heard/read this? Or am I mistaken?
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donkrx's Avatar
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 Posted 05/30/2012  12:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm surprised to hear that the TPGs don't actually have airtight containers for copper. From the sound it of there is a little more to maintaining the red color than that (I was never a chemistry person), such as surface contaminants that may not show up for some time, but at least an airtight container would help a lot with keeping excess oxygen out.

The TPGs say that they use ultrasonic welding/sealing to encapsulate, why is this not airtight? I would think they could find a way to make it a complete seal.
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 05/30/2012  12:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The TPGs say that they use ultrasonic welding/sealing to encapsulate, why is this not airtight? I would think they could find a way to make it a complete seal.


Cost and just a practical matter.

For that to happen they would have to have something thats a true vacuum to slab the coins in after sucking out the air that was let in and everything for the slabbing would have to be done there.

Then the seal would have to be much better than just pushing two pieces of plastic together would allow.

The seal is probably the least of the worries though, as theyres no point in being air tight if air is trapped inside
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donkrx's Avatar
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 Posted 05/30/2012  03:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think it needs to be vacuum sealed or oxygen free, assuming the container is now air-tight. It's a finite and relatively small amount of oxygen that will get 'used up' as the copper reacts with it. Yes a very slight degree of color change will occur, but it would be very minor and still a lot better than having the container unsealed.

Forgetting the vacuum sealing part, it's shouldn't be expensive to completely seal the plastic air-tight. Ultrasonic welding just melts the plastic so I've gotta believe that its within the realm of possibilities with the equipment they're already using. If not, there are certainly other cost effective ways to do it.
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donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2012  04:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Anyway, can you guys just comment on what your experience has been?

- Have you owned a copper RB or RD coin in a slab for more than 5 years
- Has it changed at all
- How did you store it

I really badly want to pick up an IHC in RB (probably not RD cause I'm scared now), but if its just gonna turn brown then I wont bother. I was gonna try to find one in an older slab so at least that way I know it doesn't have contaminants on the surface that got enclosed during slabbing.
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2012  04:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unsure just how long this has been in this but it is still red


Do-Full-Red-Coins-Stay-Red-In-A-Slab?
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2012  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No you can't guarantee they will stay red.


Quote:
I've heard that TPG's won't guarantee color on copper coins anymore for this reason. Has anyone else heard/read this? Or am I mistaken?

You are not mistaken, PCGS dropped their collor guarantee on copper in either 2006 or 2008, NGC will guarantee it but only for ten years.

One reason you can't make the "airtight" is because plastics are gass permiable ond over time the gasses can work there way right through the plastic. And the real problem is not oxygen, it is water vapor and sulfur bearing compounds such as hydrogen sulfide. One source of toning on the older NGC slabs was the label itself sealed inside the slab with the coin. That was probably the main purpose of the groove in the insert and the corresponding ridge in the shell that fit into it (when they went from the "No line fatties" to the with line version) Ir was to isolate the coin away from the label.
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 Posted 05/30/2012  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do-Full-Red-Coins-Stay-Red-In-A-Slab?

Quote:
Hey, just wondering if any of you have had a red coin in a slab for a long period of time... did the color change at all? I'm considering getting an IHC and I would like to know before bidding on any.

Not in a slab but notice these look the same way they did in 1959 when I put them there. Proves that there is always a way to make sure a coin stays the way it was when new.
Do-Full-Red-Coins-Stay-Red-In-A-Slab?
And someone did this and I purchased it a long, long time ago and it still looks new too.
It is odd that so many TPGS's say there slabs are safe from toning and are air tight. Yet so many end up toning anyway.
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donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2012  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the examples.

I dont know which TPGs say they have airtight slabs, but PCGS admits in one of their articles online that all slabs are only "somewhat airtight".

Maybe a dessicant could be stored with the coins since humidity is a big factor. It's hard to know just how effective that would be though.
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Jaobler's Avatar
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6384 Posts
 Posted 05/31/2012  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ICG offers an optional product called Intercept Shield (IS) that is used as the slab insert. This proprietary material supposedly protects the coin from tarnish, toning, and oxidation in general. I just called ICG and they report IS is not popular but they still provide it upon request, for a small extra charge. They do not guarantee it will preserve the original red luster on copper coins, however. For what it is worth, I have had two IS-slabbed silver coins in my collection for 6 and 10 years respectively and they show no changes in luster and color.

The IS material was also used to make boxes for slabs, either single-slab cases with a viewing window or larger boxes that hold about 20 standard-size slabs. These would add another layer of protection for slabbed coins in storage.

The IS technology may not be getting a fair shake in the marketplace due to their 2nd-tier status among grading services. If PCGS offered the product I think it would be more popular and we could likely get some expert opinions about whether, and how well, it protects RD copper.
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