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Tough Date/Hard Date

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Lonz's Avatar
494 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  11:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Lonz to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Tough Date and Hard Date have been used to describe certain coins. However I've seen it used when the mintage isn't low, or even out of the ordinary.

My question is - When would someone use the term Tough Date/Hard Date to describe a coin? And when have you seen these terms used incorrectly? Maybe ebay?

Please chime in - this one's been nagging at me.

Thanks!

Lonz
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  11:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For me, it would refer to the next level of collecting difficulty after key and semi-key coins. Take the 1914S Lincoln for example, it has the 7th lowest mintage(4.2M) of the series and is valued at ~$20 in Fine so that would make it a "tough date" IMO. Conversely, a 1909VDB with a mintage of 28M should not be considered a tough date. Yes, the mintage is lower than the majority of the Lincoln series but it is certainly abundant and inexpensive in circulated and lower MS grades.

The misuse of the term is quite prevalent on ebay and amounts to nothing more than shameless hype by a seller.
Edited by biokemist6
06/01/2012 11:43 am
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nod2003's Avatar
United States
3294 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it annoys me greatly to go on ebay and see one of the most common Barber halves, the 1908O being labled as "rare".
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United States
223 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add COMET to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I cant say for some series as I'm not familiar with them. But a lot of silver dollars were melted making them a lot less than the mintage number. This is what makes some coins a tough date, just because you see a mintage number doesn't mean that same amount still exists.

Also some coins were known to be heavily circulated. Finding them in high MS grade can also make them tough. But then again it all depends on what year and series.
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mvc's Avatar
United States
138 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mvc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
heavily misused on ebay by sellers hoping to fool a would be buyer.
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Russian Federation
5172 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for using my favorite example is the 1955-S Wheat cent a tough/hard date? It's the smallest business strike cent mintage since 1940, but that mintage figure is downright huge if compared to the 1900-1939 period.
The coin I certainly would use the term "tough/hard date" for, though, is the 1999 Russian one rouble: I'd leave the word "key" (as related to Russian 1, 2 and 5 roubles) for the 2001-2003 period with their mint-or-proof-set-only pieces, but the 1999 is just about common enough for everyone to realize it's uncommon (its significantly rarer counterpart, the 1999 two rouble - probably the rarest non-variety coin still findable in circulation - is often said to have a numismatic value of 50 roubles (probably an overblown figure - but then nobody's really saving these 1999 twos), and unlike the rouble truly deserves the term "semi-key").
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187662 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sorry for using my favorite example is the 1955-S Wheat cent a tough/hard date? It's the smallest business strike cent mintage since 1940, but that mintage figure is downright huge if compared to the 1900-1939 period.
You most definitely like bringing that one up.

No problem, an no need to apoliogize. I am glad you mentioned it, because I never gave that one much thought before.
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United States
10284 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There would be exceptions, where a common coin could also have that term injected into a descriptive title.
It isn't a numismatic term, but some sellers might be proper if they called a certain coin a tough date.
If you had a MS 65 1953 S nickel, that would be common, but with 5 full steps it would certainly apply.
Same goes for a deep cameo 1957 Franklin proof. A 1961 P Franklin with full bell lines in MS65 would be worth hundreds and more since they are very tough to find in that grade with FBL.
I do agree though that many auction listings abuse the term rare and tough date etc. just to get more attention.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tough dates to me are anything that is just hard to find. Some coins population isn't that low per say, but you never see them come up for sale. Other coins could have high mintage but not many survived or not many high grades still exist.

I guess a lot of it depends on what you are looking for in terms of which ones will fit the bill. Raw collections will not necessarily have the same hard dates as a graded set or a graded set at a certain grade ect
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Lonz's Avatar
494 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lonz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the examples that came to mind was someone was describing the 2008 Lincoln Cent as a "Tough Date" - wasn't on ebay or anything, but got me thinking..

Can the term be used for varieties as well? For example... 1970S Cent- Small date - considered tough? scarce? rare? Obviously we really don't "know" what the mintage figures are for that year/mint/date style - at the same time I've heard the 1922 Plain LWC referred to as a Key Date, but we also don't have mintage figures for that either... ahh this new obsession of mine... so many questions... many more answers and very little time!

Thanks for the great responses.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2012  11:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's not a coin (numismatic) term. It's just a description.
It is often used by collectors and sellers in discussion and as a selling point but everything is relative.
For me this would be a tough date, for somebody else, maybe not so tough.

Tough-Date/Hard-Date
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upstate's Avatar
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3278 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2012  09:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add upstate to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My eyes are burning... but we digress

I agree with mvc, a way over used term on ebay.
I suppose it is the next tier of coins down from semikey dates and arbitrary
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Lonz's Avatar
494 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2012  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lonz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TheNickelGuy,

That's one of the toughest dates I've seen! Yikes!
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 Posted 06/02/2012  9:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just one of the many mostly misused words in Numismatics. ebay is a place where all sorts of terminology in coinage gets started. UNSERCHED is now a completely comical word in coins. I've heard many dealers at coin shows use hard to find, tuff date, difficult type, rarely available and many more such terms. Works both ways too. Once I was looking for a 20D Lincoln Cent in a high MS grade. I constantly heard dealers say, OH, that is common. You'll find one here somewhere. It took almost two years to find one. Is that a tuff date? Is is a hard to find coin? OR was I just unlucky?
Don't worry about coin terminology. If you want, start your own coin vocabulary. No rules or laws against that you know.
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