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Author	Replies: 12 / Views: 2,757
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/26/2012 12:05 pm No, the subject does not apply to my words written here ... it applies to something far-more-important (in my opinion) ... I have had the opportunity to read an article by Paul R. Petch and I wanted others to have the same opportunity that I have... Sorry, I really do not fully understand the ins-and-outs of computers ... so I often end-up doing things the long-way... In your search engine, type in ... The Abdication Incident North York Coin Club Bulletin by Paul R. Petch ... as I just did to see if it works, it did, so it should bring you to the PDF link... dts... Report this Post to the Staff

Imohtep Valued Member Canada 321 Posts	Posted 06/26/2012 12:15 pm CLICK HERE for a hyperlink to the page he is talking about! Report this Post to the Staff
tamarin Pillar of the Community Canada 576 Posts	Posted 06/26/2012 12:42 pm That was a great read! I wonder if individual clubs are still putting out such impressive newsletters. The 1936 dot mystery continues. Obviously, despite assertions of officials intimate with the year's coinage, the great majority were never released and subsequently melted down. Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/28/2012 09:28 am Firstly, I would like to begin by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed reading ... The Abdication Incident by Paul R. Petch. Within the article, there are many enlightening mentions that help us all to better understand the chain-of-events surrounding the "1936 dot" subject ... well done indeed! There are as well certain aspects that stand-out to myself and beg to be discussed ... this is not meant to be viewed as a slight to the efforts of Paul R. Petch, as such is not my intention... On page 5, center column of the article ... there is the mention of Mr. Haxby having access to the Royal Canadian Mint files and that he concludes they were apparently melted down... I can have access to all the files in the world ... but ... if there is no information in the files about the subject that I am looking into ... what bearing does that have? dts... Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/29/2012 10:19 am At the bottom of column 1 and continuing at the top of column 2, on page 5... We all have the opportunity to review a short history of why a letter of affirmation on the dot coins was sought-out and the actual response said to have been received... To be counted as one who admits this provided information is intriguing, I do give pause to wonder why those who advocate the Pittman dots, have never willingly brought such forward in its wholeness, during the great-many discussions I've engaged in these past many years. Upon reading the provided response, my eyes immediately fell to the primary reason for such not being included as my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad material to back their position... "and all were put into circulation". - W.C. Ronson (as presented) When it comes to the dot coins of 1936, it does not escape that there are those who conveniently ignore certain facts, willingly manipulate other facts and creatively write non-existent facts. So I ask all who care to respond ... Do we conveniently ignore these six words presented? dts... "Creating a lie is easy, living and maintaining a lie is difficult"-dts Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10463 Posts	Posted 06/29/2012 12:58 pm How do you know if those six words were accurate or factual in the first place? After speaking with Royal Canadian Mint representatives (including production engineers and managers) over the past several years regarding a multitude of topics such as errors, NCLT and Winnipeg production strikes; erroneous statements by those representing the RCM have been the norm, not the exception. We, as numismatists, tend to know the finer details of some of these coins more than those who make them - because coins are not a means to our employment and income (like the mint workers), they are our passion. Note that most of the observations we make, including here, are neither properly documented nor is it necessarily alteration of fact. The former mint workers were not scientists recording and documenting data, as the early natural scientists in Canada did - these were government workers, under various forms of bureaucracy - how much faith does one put in any form of historic piece of information, verbally or otherwise? I think at some point, Rob Turner indirectly illustrated this fact, by acquiring a small hoard of 1858 large cents and reconstructing the die pairings, a form of working backwards to establish relevant statistical information. All we can do is examine the current strike and finish characteristics of the existing 1c and 10c dot coins, and as numismatists, we recognize those as characteristic of George V specimen strikes, and not production strikes. Science, and most other disciplines, advances by challenging the norm. By identifying the existing coins as specimen strikes, does that mean we are altering fact, or challenging older statements such as those six words? Food for thought... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Edited by SPP-Ottawa 06/29/2012 1:00 pm Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 06/30/2012 10:04 am Roger, before I continue ... I have three questions for you... 1) "How do you know" ... is this leading sentence/question actually meant to be applied to me alone? 2) To the best of your knowledge, is Rob Turner the very-first to perform the task of identifying 1858 1¢ die pairings? 3) Are you of the confirmed understanding that the employment of the term "specimen" during the time-frame of 1937 by the Mint ... actually equates to being "a type of strike"? dts... Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10463 Posts	Posted 06/30/2012 1:15 pm 1) No. 2) Rob participates in this forum. I'll let him answer that, or, alternatively, you can buy his book - the answer lies within. 3) Yes. Brand new dies, slower strikes, higher pressure; coins made for the "special" coin sets of the day. Do we have documented proof of this, of course not. The bean counters of the day were concerned with their ledger balancing even. All we have are the rare specimen sets, and the custom cases that were made for them. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
54dollarcoin Valued Member Canada 475 Posts	Posted 06/30/2012 1:40 pm Dean , with 76 years having passed and NOT a single confirmed circulation strike of either the "official" 1936 ten cents or one cent as per the Charlton Standard catalogue 66th edition 2012 Volume 1,qv. pp.129,60, I think we safely assume that A the coins were struck and then melted or B were never made with a DOT at all for the ten cents and one cent. The specimens that exist are most likely special back door jobs made for personal gain of a few high ranking mint officials. In fourty years I have seen many laughable attempts especially the cent. Of course I do have obverse die chip examples which are not official dots and I do own a rather nice ten cents die chip NOT DOT in wreath. So in closing just as Oswald shot Kennedy there is no Conspiracy theory that will be able to persuade me that 1936 circulation strike ten cents and one cent DOTS exist. Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 07/01/2012 10:07 am As I can draw-out the point being made... it's a gift, what can I say : )... I'll attempt to shorten what is to be said... Real short version; the "dot story" is as spurious as the Pittman dot coins in my opinion... If something is going to be presented as being fact, then it should stand in its wholeness ... not be sliced-up for someones convenience and pieces should not be excluded or ignored to press theories... If people cannot find a Pittman-type-dot 1¢ or 10¢, then the answer is very simple, they never existed in the first place ... thus, the description for the coins is misleading ... therefore people can look all they like and will simply come to the conclusion that many have... I have looked for the dot coins based on the provided description and I have found different along the way... It does not matter to me what fellow hobbyists do with any finds that I share ... like-them, hate-them, love-them, turn-from-them, embrace-them, collect-them, ignore-them, look-for-them ... it's all good!! The hobby is my sedative from every-day life ... it does not define who I am by any stretch of the imagination ... it is simply an activity that I do... dts... "Sometimes, the obvious is just not that obvious"-dts change 1: fixed the word draw-out... Edited by cbu 07/01/2012 10:09 am Report this Post to the Staff
54dollarcoin Valued Member Canada 475 Posts	Posted 07/01/2012 2:35 pm warp factor 5 !! Aye Aye Captain Kirk! ! PS Pittman did find the rare dot coins! They are known as Specimen strikes and are until proven otherwise quite legit in our hobby and have traded frequently over the years! They may or may not be back door jobs but they do exist! Now how about that "Tin Hat " fitting you scheduled! Report this Post to the Staff
dialog_gvf Pillar of the Community Canada 1581 Posts	Posted 07/02/2012 5:31 pm Dean, elsewhere you said: Quote: The dot story is the "sales pitch" for the Pittman dot coins, which are the product for sale. But, the information that W.C. Ronson is purported to have confirmed came from Maurice LaFortune the mint employee that obtained the original specimen samples: Quote: It is not known if the files contained any specific information on specimen strikes, but it subsequently occurred to Mr. LaFortune that the Mint vault might contain a few specimen sets available for sale. By luck, he found one complete set and a partial set missing the ten-cent denomination. He acquired both, retaining one and selling the incomplete set to another member of the Ottawa Coin Club. Upon that member's death, Guy Potter purchased the incomplete set from the estate. "By luck" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) Mr. Potter got an incomplete set, and Mr. Potter is the one that got W.C. Ronson to respond: Quote: In his letter, Mr. Potter outlined what had been learned of the dot coinage, including quantities struck, and requested that Mr. Ronson "go on record" with an official statement. So, how can you trust the Ronson response as real or factual, when the whole thing appears to be setting up the providence of Mr. Potter's and Mr. LaFortune's specimens? Report this Post to the Staff
cbu Valued Member Canada 94 Posts	Posted 07/05/2012 11:18 am Excellent observations made & shared dialog_gvf... It is my opinion that the "Pittman type 1936 dot scenario", is-was nothing more than a "Sting", which was set into motion by Grifter's of the day and some just happened to get caught-up in the "pot-of-gold-at-the-end-of-the-rainbow" promise... *For those who do not know, the whole point of a "Sting" ... is to Con-(vince) outsiders (the mark and/or none-planners) into going along willingly ... ie: make them believers in the miracle... Looking at the letter-out by Potter of June 24, 1952; we immediately see that a copy of the letter is not included for our viewing pleasure ... was it ever shown, did it even exist? If it has never been shown, then truly everyone is left to their own thoughts as to what it might have contained ... prime stuff for any well-executed "sting"... Looking at the letter-in by Ronson of July 22, 1952; we immediately see that it is brief and to the point ... but what many do not see, is that it was not properly signed by the individual said to have signed it... Perhaps the words that follow Master, were only omitted for the need to save-room in articles ... then again, perhaps not... June 24th to July 22nd (1952) is about 1-month for this whole letter-writing scenario to have played-out ... how realistic is this time-frame for the mail-system of the day? Even today in 2012, it can/has and does, take a regular letter (snail mail) 2 to 3 weeks to reach a destination ... which doesn't leave a whole lot-of-time to respond to a letter received and mail the response letter back... I can only comment on what is presented and how it is presented for our review ... nice to see that others are doing the same... dts... Report this Post to the Staff
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