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Love It Or Clean It?

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Pillar of the Community

United States
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 Posted 07/09/2012  09:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers


Love-It-Or-Clean-It?

I shot some photos as a favor for a dealer friend and was rewarded with a few coins that you will not be seeing on VCoins. This one was marked $21 which seems cheap except that it is covered with hard, chunky and uneven green patina. I liked the coin because of a couple things I saw under the chunks. The question is whether I should try to clean it. Before someone says it let me point out that this is NOT bronze disease. The green is hard and attached like little rocks not soft and flaky. What do you say - Love it or clean it?
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Bing's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 07/09/2012  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great coin and I would leave it be. What lies beneath the chunks of hard green patina might not be very appealing. Well, that's my opinion anyway.
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John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How good are you at cleaning them? I think it should be cleaned by someone who knows how to do it right without causing damage. It looks like a nice coin.
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Masis's Avatar
United Kingdom
946 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Masis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As mentioned in another thread, the silvering on these AE Antoninianii is weak, in this example trying to remove the green encrustation (likely the result of the coin being piled with other coins in a hoard) will remove the silvering with it.
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TJsCoins's Avatar
United States
3229 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I personally have had little luck mechanically cleaning this type of encrustation. Having said that, I would try soaking this coin in olive oil for 3 months to a couple of years. The coin has good detail that you may see get better and more clear:) Check on the coin every month or so and change the oil every 6 months or so.

Of course the coin is attributable as is so you may want to leave it as is. Nice coin!
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United States
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 Posted 07/09/2012  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Doucet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Personally I like the patina as is but everyone has a view of their own.

You are not alone with is question.

"Some metals, notably copper alloys that have been buried for long periods, acquire a distinctive patina that is often admired in its own right. Also most materials, including wood, ivory and many stones, gradually develop a patina brought about by years of use, cleaning and polishing, together with the slow action of the air. Thus patina is partly a manifestation of the age of the piece, and as such it is valued for the aura of history that it endows. Although patina is a prized symbol of authenticity, it is not the original surface, nor does it represent the original appearance; therein lies a contradiction that has long vexed curators, collectors and restorers. How can something that is clearly so intrinsic to the object not be ‘genuine'?" http://www.moma.org/collection/deta...eme_id=10150


PATINA: noble / vile or virulent natural / artificial

In an effort to bring some clarity and precision to the use of the term, the late John Gettens wrote an important study of the corrosion crusts found on buried bronze artifacts entitled "Patina: noble and vile" after Pliny's 1st century CE distinctions between "aerugo nobilis" and "virus aerugo", describing corrosion that is desirable, stable and attractive and corrosion that is unattractive and virulent. An additional important distinction that can be found throughout the patina literature since ancient times is that made between patina that is natural and patina that is artificial. http://www.northernlightstudio.com/patinalec.php

Would you clean this vase? Some people would shine this baby up like new.
Love-It-Or-Clean-It?

Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 07/09/2012  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After soaking a few hours in EDTA solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyle...aacetic_acid
I did not expect all the green to come off so easily. I believed there was enough silver showing that the EDTA would loosen the green enough I could pick off the distracting ones but it dissolved them all. I would not use EDTA on a copper coin with green patina because, as pointed out above, you never know what is between the green and the copper. In this case, I was hoping that the silver would protect the copper. I do not recommend you try it and guarantee that you will ruin some coins if you do. There is also the question of safety which I decided was worth the risk considering what I read but you need to do that yourself and don't eat the stuff.

Love-It-Or-Clean-It?

The illustration above shows several things I found interesting about the coin. The left inset shows where the copper color has been exposed in the cheek. Comparing to the 'before' photo I suspect that the wear occurred after the coin was found in modern times since there is no green on the cheek. Someone may have rubbed it against something when first found? I see no wear on the coin but it can no longer be called mint state. Its worst feature is illustrated by the two insets at the right. The far right shows a captive fully struck up and detailed just as it should be. The second one from the right shows the other captive flatly struck but fully silvered. There is no wear but the hammerman just did not hit it hard and straight enough to transfer all the die detail. This reduces the value of the coin and keeps it from being a high dollar item. My middle inset shows the mintmark PXXT which is why I wanted the coin in the first place.

Ticinum mint was different from the other mints that used XXI to indicate an alloy ration of 20 parts copper to one part silver. Ticinum only used XX replacing the I with a T for Ticinum. The P indicates it was made by the first (Primus) workshop. I have other coins of Ticinum from the third shop that read TXXT and people ask how we can tell the first T is the shop while the last T is the city. This coin answers that question. It is often the case that you can not study one coin at a time but need to look at thousands issued over a period of time and places to see patterns that make the inscriptions make sense. This is a decent but not perfect example of a very common coin well worth the $21. Whether you think my cleaning increased that or not is a matter of opinion. People who like silver might say it is now $40 while someone out there probably liked it better before.

Edited by dougsmit
07/09/2012 11:52 am
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I generally am anti-cleaning, in my opinion, this coin is a prime example of the exception to the rule. The amount of detail that is now visible is remarkable. Since the beauty of these coins to me is the amount of detail obtained with hand-engraving and hand-striking, I feel that the cleaning was well worth it. Also, the solution that you used left an attractive patina.
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  12:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Once again you have proven me wrong, my friend. The cleaned coin is much better. And to think I recommended leaving it alone. Hmmm, makes a case for not listening to me, eh?
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TJsCoins's Avatar
United States
3229 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great job doug! And a whole lot quicker than olive oil! Where can you buy the EDTA solution?
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was going to say leave the coin as it was, but after seeing the results after you cleaned it all I can say is wow. Great results.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 07/09/2012  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Great job doug! And a whole lot quicker than olive oil! Where can you buy the EDTA solution?


ebay. You don't want medical grade or reagent purity. I bought a pound bulk from an ad that showed a pile of white powder. A pound is a lot! Some sellers make the statement that you must be 21 to order because there are people who eat the stuff and they really should get the medical grade and a lot of advice from their doctor. I'll repeat that it is hard on bronze coins unless watched carefully.
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Eng5858's Avatar
United States
1316 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eng5858 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


dougsmit,

The details of the coin was great with the heavy green patina, but after the cleaning job, looks much better.
You never know till you clean it, sometimes they don't come out this good....
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chrsmat71's Avatar
United States
4981 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrsmat71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wow, that coin looks great now ds....i wouldn't have cleaned it, but I'm glad you did!

I've had a few with similar stuff on them, one I damaged by picking to much ....the other I just left alone after my first mistake.

how likely is the edta to damage the coin?
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Masis's Avatar
United Kingdom
946 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Masis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really great work and attribution Doug!
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stevex6's Avatar
3352 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2012  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stevex6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ummm, I still kinda like the "hue" of the green one ... is that wrong?

However, obviously both versions would be great additions to our collections (and the "more" cleaned version does show a bit more detail) ...

But geeessshhh!! => I just want dougsmit to drop the ball for once!! ... but it never seems to happen!

=> well played once again, dougsmit ... well played!!

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