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 Replies: 14 / Views: 1,825 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
I have just a few spots left in my slabbed 7070 and the Classic Head Cent (1808-1814) is giving my fits.  Why is it so elusive in decent condition for a FMV price? Finding one is not the hard part, its the difference in FMV and the sellers price which has been at least $100 over FMV. The FMV for a F-12 is around $300 to $390, but try finding a problem free for that price. I found an 1810, Normal Date, in F12 for $475. $145 over FMV and the seller is not budging on the price, since it is a "new arrival". I thought that I read that there was an inferior batch of planchets during this time, and this series is hard to find in "problem free". There lots of them in "details" slabs  . Edited by oih82w8
10/11/2012 12:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3234 Posts |
Early copper in many price guides are not represented properly and probably under-priced. I paid well above any normal guide price for my early copper cents so that I could get them with decent surfaces and no distractions. The copper alloy/planchets used back then were of inconsistent quality and it could be difficult to find choice pieces. There is an EAC copper book that you can buy that has more realistic pricing information (I forget the name). You might have to go to one of the big copper dealers like Doug Byrd. He's not cheap, but you'll get good stuff by EAC standards.
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
I think the problem was the planchets were not an alloy, they were 100% percent copper, therefore very soft and prone to accelerated wear compared to the rest of the series produced from an alloy content planchet.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5862 Posts |
The story I was told (which may or may not have any basis in reality) is that we were previously getting our copper planchets from England but had to get them elsewhere (or make them from scratch ourselves) due to the events surrounding the War of 1812. As a result, we ended up with a bunch of substandard planchets (possible damaged by sea water) that caused many (if not most) of the coins produced on the planchets to show early signs of decay.
Or, to put it more succinctly, there was an inferior batch of planchets during this time, and this series is hard to find in "problem free"...
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
There are also lots of them in problem free slabs that should be in detail slabs. (Which is why truly problem free slabbed coins seel for much more than the guides say. For guide price money you may be able to get a graded one but it won't really be "problem free".)
Yes this series is very tough to find problem free. Supposedly it wasn't so much that the planchets were inferior as much as they seemed to be unusally pure copper and very soft. this caused them to wear quickly. There was also a problem with shipping and storage. The planchets were shipped from england and being very heavy they tended to loaded first and taken off last so they could be very low down in the hold and act as ballast. Unfortunately these wooden ships did leak somewhat and often the kegs of planchets would wind up submerged in the salt water bilge, often for long periods. All of the classic head planchets came over in only three shipments. The first one was shipped in August of 1807 and arrived about three months later. These were mostly used for the 1808's and were used for abour a year and a half. The second group was shipped in July of 1809 and arrived five months later. These lasted til March of 1811 and were used for the 1809, 10, and some of the 1811's The last batch was shipped in January of 1811 but didn't arrive until April of 1812. These potentially sat submerged in salt water in the hold of a ship for 15 months. What do you think that would do to the copper planchets? And it took two and a half years to use them up. Do you think they unpacked the planchets cleaned and dried them before they put them in storage?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
there are plenty of them out there but with the history of how the planchets were shipped, trying to find a problem free example in AU or above is a very hard coin to acquire and to afford for allot of people. It was the one coin that I looked for the longest before I finally found one that I liked to put in my 7070 album
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1704 Posts |
All of the above plus the fact that there just not that many made. Three years, 1808, 1810, and 1812 the years had between one million to one and a half million pieces, the remaining four years of this type had less than half a million pieces struck. Ed ANA LM-3175 |
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CCF Sponsor
United States
702 Posts |
Conder101, as always, makes great points. As does everyone above me...
Also, a lot of Copper collectors prefer raw coins, so slabbed one go for a more significant premium than other coins.
Another thing to consider is that coppers of this era are relatively easy to attribute as a certain die variety. Oftentimes copper collectors are willing to pay a premium to have a scarce die variety that is not represented on the slab or that even the seller knows about. So if a dealer becomes accustomed to selling high, they have no reason to sell low.
But yes, the main reason is that the price guides (for all of the reasons mentioned above) simply don't often reflect reality for early copper. They do make a good effort though.
When it comes to copper, I wouldn't worry so much about paying a little too much (or even a lot too much). Find a good dealer to work with and they'll give you a fair price.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
I pulled a nice, problem free 1810 off the bay for $12. Had a bit of die grease, which the seller must have mistaken for wear. ;D Keep an eye out!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3184 Posts |
To the op, there are many coins out there that due to demand or popularity, they go for way over what greysheet or what some online price guide might say they should be be worth.
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Rest in Peace
United States
4849 Posts |
This is the toughest coin to find for the 7070 imho. And the most expensive as well in a decent problem-free grade. Great points made above.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Quote:
This is the toughest coin to find for the 7070 imho. And the most expensive as well in a decent problem-free grade. I agree 100% it was definitely the hardest coin for me to fill the hole in the 7070 album. They are tough in problem free especially if you want anything above EF45. They are pretty easy to find if you don't mind a few problems like porosity (seems to be the most common problem) or any other type of environmental damage. All this being said it was also the most rewarding to look at when I finally did find one I liked the look of that I didn't mind including in the album with the rest of the coins |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1839 Posts |
Well I'm down to 6 coins left to complete my 7070 and you guessed it, this is one of them.
You're not alone.
Edited by Tbone
10/12/2012 7:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2362 Posts |
I don't have a 7070 but have collected all the large cent years except for 1793 and 1799. As I continue to update I agree that the classic head cents are difficult - at least on my budget. The dilemma is to buy a smooth but very worn planchet or one with more details but more porous. Quote:
These potentially sat submerged in salt water in the hold of a ship for 15 months. Conder - that describes the condition of the brand new Chevy Vega I bought in the 1970s. Anyone who owned a Vega or Pinto can attest that they were already rusting in the showroom  As an example here are my two 1812's. My weak photo skills make them look worse than they appear in hand.      Member ANA and EAC "You got to lose to know how to win". Dream On by Aerosmith Edited by cipster
10/13/2012 3:08 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
Guess what the OP is forgetting is the "M" in FMV....the Market price changes constantly depending on supply and demand. Having a "published" value for something and saying its value is fixed to that printing would be akin to publishing a book of stock values. Impossible.....when you explore the Market....the prices you see that moment are the FMV for that day. Yesterday was different than today, as well as tommorow will be different. Just have to find a price you are happy with.
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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,825 |
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Posted 10/11/2012 10:01 am
