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 Replies: 35 / Views: 10,383 |
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Valued Member
United States
148 Posts |
Could you guys give me a crash course on silver bars? I've searched the archives and there isn't a lot there. - Englehard, and J&M are the big boys- correct? Would a Silvertowne or Pamp Suisse be a 2nd tier type manufacturer then? What are other reputable companies? - Do you need to worry about fakes in small denomination bars? At what size do you have to worry about fakes? - Types = hand poured, drop poured, and stamped is that correct, am I missing any? - Silver art bars = I'm not really looking for this currently, but if anyone knows what the fuss is about and why some collectors are so cultish about them I'd love to know - Where is a good place to buy them? Provident doesn't have a great selection and I'm wary of being ripped off on ebay, lol |
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Valued Member
Canada
108 Posts |
Yeah, I have similar questions. I'm also wondering what people think about California Crown Mint silver bars? I found a couple of 50 oz bars (in the kit kat shape) for a good price and I'm wondering if they are worth it? Are they commonly recognized as reputable/safe bars? Anyone have any history on this refiner?
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
First of all I'm not an expert, but have been stacking ag for several years and keep up with the trade. Pamp Suisse is considered to be unimpeachable and highly regarded. Silvertowne have been around a long time and are trustworthy. As to fakes, I don't think that's a problem. It's very hard to get the weight right and frankly at silver prices today, it's just not worth it. I buy whatever I can find with the lowest premium including shipping. I like Provident and Monarch. Monarch produces their own bars and I like them. Tulving usually has the lowest premiums, but has a rather high minimum order. Customer service skills are not his long suit, so if you want a friendly dealer, avoid him. As to art bars, I think it's just the competitive collector gene kicking in. I find absolutely no added value in them. Don't forget to get a substantial stash of junk silver (non-numismatic) US coins minted prior to 1965. They're universally recognized and will probably be the easiest to trade or sell when and if the currency collapse occurs. |
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Valued Member
Canada
53 Posts |
still to low premium bars, ntr, pan am, etc. Stack a few hand pours for pleasure. I've grabbed bars from Silvertowne, nice bars and free shipping but if you have a LCS you should be getting better prices. For fakes, my core stack is mainly silver maples. I know them like the back of my hand now.
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Valued Member
United States
456 Posts |
Sunshine mint 1 oz bars are faked. Check ebay listings for 'plated sunshine mint silver' to see them. Because of these I avoid sunshine mint bars entirely. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1200 Posts |
If you want the real bottom line (literally speaking) on bar values, one idea is to go to where the rubber meets the road -- ask your local dealer. My guy is a classical "an ounce of silver is an ounce of silver" guy. He pays 75 cents under spot for bars, and you'd need a hydraulic car crusher to squeeze anything more out of him. When he's buying, he works hard at putting no value on name brands, art bars, age, condition or almost anything else either. ebay and fellow collectors are however totally different. The provenance of "old pour" bars, name brands, poured vs extruded, vintage stuff, currently popular art bars, size (many love odd sizes), current production vs out of production, and a million other things all command premiums that run from modest to stratospheric. One of the CCF gang uttered what I think was the coolest poetic quote I ever heard about silver bars in a recent post when he said his philosophy was "Buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep." His favorite was 10oz NTR bars from Goldmart, which may be about as cheap as internet retail gets. I forget who said that, but he should be named CCF Poet Laureate for 2012. Anyhow... 1. Stick with mainstream name brands and you shouldn't get hurt. 2. 1oz and 10oz bars tend to have the more modest premiums and are most liquid. 3. There are more philosophies/opinions/outlooks on silver bars than there are fleas on coyotes. Pick the one you like best. By the time this thread quiets down, you should have heard more different ideas than you'd hear in Intro to Philosophy 101 or Comparative Religions 101 at the college of your choice. 4. When you pick your philosophy, don't expect others to agree or to pay you what you feel your specific style of bars are worth, because that may or may not happen. 5. I think the only stackers who'll almost always get what they feel they deserve when they sell are the "Buy 'em cheap & stack 'em deep" crowd. It's hard to undercut the bottom line. When you get into fashions and styles, market infatuation with those factors can be fickle and may or may not be there when you go to sell. The "an ounce of silver is an ounce of silver" view is rarely disproven, but the level of value placed on fashions and styles does fluctuate. So---get a couple good military surplus ammo cans and start filling them. Happy hunting! Edited by Fat Freddy
12/08/2012 1:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1723 Posts |
Quote:- Englehard, and J&M are the big boys- correct? Would a Silvertowne or Pamp Suisse be a 2nd tier type manufacturer then? What are other reputable companies? - Do you need to worry about fakes in small denomination bars? At what size do you have to worry about fakes? - Types = hand poured, drop poured, and stamped is that correct, am I missing any? - Silver art bars = I'm not really looking for this currently, but if anyone knows what the fuss is about and why some collectors are so cultish about them I'd love to know - Where is a good place to buy them? Provident doesn't have a great selection and I'm wary of being ripped off on ebay, lol 1) Yes Jm and engelhard are the big boys....highly sought after for various reasons whether be reputation, how long they have been around...style poured vs stamped. These bars can and have been faked in 50oz bars and higher. Not so sure about 20oz or less....someone else will have to chime in. 2) Silvertown has been around a while but like others say fakes do exist. 3) Pamp bars are very sought after and command a very large premium because of reputation and style. I haven't heard of fakes...yet. 4) I know anything about art bars and I stay away from them. 5) I wouldn't worry too much about ebay. But I do try and purchase from sellers that have a long and good track record and when you get the bar you ca always bring it to a lCS and have them take a look at it. Most of the time the simple magnet test will USUALLY no stear you wrong. 6) I stack 20oz and less in JM, Engelhard and NTR. After researching many bar types online and looking at what I LIKE and/or price points, These are what I stick too and am comfortable with. You need to do the same. 7) When it comes to stacking...NTR bars are the best bang for buck on the market and they look nice. For personal stuff (JM and ENGELs) I have a premium that I have in my head that I stick too 99% of the time. But am fully aware that What I pay...others may not or know others will pay. In the end, stick to what you are comfortable with and price point that you decide. Don't deviate and stick to your guns. Do your research on one type and get to know it well then move to the next. JMHO CHEERS! Edited by samsnate
12/08/2012 1:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts |
I consider myself and old pour collector, lol.... Everybody trusts Engelhard and J@M and Pamp is the big Europe company while Perth Mint makes bars even today, gold roos and such. These names all most trusted so you got little to worry about getting cheated on ebay. The buyer protection I preach over and over again ALWAYS rules for buyer, minus a total ridiculous claim period. I bought from a guy once who didn't send me bar or buyer before me bar, and I got my money back, even though it took a month or so..... Anyhow, I really doubt anyone has the skill to pour and old OX head 20 today and stamp it and convince me it is old, patina takes time, etc.... Something that has been here 30 or 40 years just looks different then a pressed bar fresh off the line in 2012.... Your not gonna find the rare hard to find bars at Provident, and Silvertowne has a reputable name but does not trade for the figures that J@M and Engelhard produce with Engelhard probably being considered the top dawg in the old silver bar world..... Odd pour of either of the two fore mentioned trade WAY over spot on ebay, like 300 for a 3 oz. Maple leaf J@M to up around 2k for the 4 oz. version.... The 3's and the 7's get crazy, but nothing I have seen gets as crazy high as the four oz. Engelhard pours.... THE BEST bang for your BUCK and SAFE purchase on ebay is Scottsdale silver, and they always have the old pour style puma face and Silvertowne in five once, and the Monarchs in 10 oz. old pour style. They ALWAYS sell for 185 or 385, not a terrible price for silver that you can bet you will have in two days.... You could simply go to Silvertowne direct, and buy their old pours 5s and 10s for more like 170 and 370 shipped roughly, not too shabby.... Edited by Silverhawk74
12/09/2012 12:56 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts |
Here is something that took me sometime to learn..... I love a 20 bar BUT give me four 5 oz. silver bars all day as they are more liquid. Not that they aren't plenty that have the money to buy a 20 bar, but many knowing you got at 800 or so maybe way less way back when in it, is not gonna give you 1200 or 1k today just because ebay fees and such.... Best to sell items worth 100 to 500 all day IMO, not to big (fees an such) but not to small like a 10 dollar sale that is more trouble to box up and ship. MANY more can budget 100 to 500 verses 1k to 2k, just my opinion even though plenty of you heavy hitter out there, most of which buying bulk from either Prov, Goldmart, APMEX, etc.... Edited by Silverhawk74
12/09/2012 01:03 am
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Valued Member
 United States
148 Posts |
Thanks for the responses Fred, Sam, and Hawk, very educational!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts |
Some of the Englehard and J&M old bars can have quite a premium for collectors. Not caring about high premiums or old bars, I have bought 40 5-0z SilverTowne bars. These are not old, rare, or expensive but they are 200 ozs. of nice shiny .999 silver.  |
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Valued Member
United States
148 Posts |
Do you put them in something to prevent tarnish? Also do you have a picture and a website to buy the bar you are recommending?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1211 Posts |
I am not a silver stacker but lets just say I have an opportunity to buy 1 ounce 999 rounds and/or bars once per week. Would you buy 1-2 per week if you could get them at spot with no premium?
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Valued Member
United States
360 Posts |
What do you mean by "more liquid"? I am thinking that stacking could be fun.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
830 Posts |
more liquid = easier to sell
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Valued Member
United States
360 Posts |
So, it means that or that's what it equates to?
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Replies: 35 / Views: 10,383 |
Posted 12/08/2012 11:29 am
