| Author |
 Replies: 30 / Views: 4,101 |
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
I had bought a coin on ebay from a reputable member of this forum (who I will not name) months ago. It was a KGV Penny that he had listed as an ex-ICCS MS-65 Red. He sent me the old holder along with the coin. I had little doubt at the time that the coin was previously ICCS MS-65 Red. I submitted the coin to ICCS, and just got it back today: MS-60 Cleaned. I see no signs of cleaning on the coin. I asked the coin dealer who I submit my coins through to look at the coin, and he saw no signs either (and he added that it's a lot nicer than a 60). I contacted the seller, not looking for anything, other than information. He said that he had acquired the coin ungraded with the holder as well. He had looked at the coin and had no doubts about the condition of the coin, and did not suspect any cleaning or tampering. So the original owner claims it to be a grade, a member on here that many of you would call an expert agrees with the grade, a reputable coin dealer agrees with it, and I agree with it, but ICCS does not. Has anyone ever had a situation where they strongly disagreed with an assessment by ICCS? What did you do about it, and did you have any success? I have heard that ICCS has software that recognizes when they have a coin that they have previously graded. Does anyone know if this is true? |
|
|
|
Valued Member
Canada
386 Posts |
As per their disclaimer, ICCS provides an opinion. And an opinion is not cast in stone. I would simply have another grading company (such as CCCS, PCGS or NGC) regrade the coin for you.
I have come across several coins undergraded by the ICCS in the past. Even the pros can assign the same coin a different grade, when it is resubmitted to them months or years later. Coin grading certain has a subjective element to it.
Edited by 1945V
12/19/2012 5:21 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1984 Posts |
I think I read that the big US graders have software that can recognize formerly graded coins (presumably if graded after the software was written). I would be shocked in ICCS did this though. It is a pretty low-tech operation.
|
|
Valued Member
Canada
386 Posts |
Smallcentguy,
ICCS does not even have a website. I would be very surprised to hear that they have coin recognition software.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1192 Posts |
Post a set of good pics of said coin in here or the grading forum. Grading is definitely subjective and ICCS isn't always 100% consistent (no grading company is) but MS60 cleaned vs a prblem-free MS65 should be like night and day.
FWIW, there are very few dealers/people whom I would trust in that situation that the coin actually belongs to that detached certificate. Having not seen the coin or know the person who sold it, I'd be incline to trust the (current) opinion of ICCS.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 Canada
686 Posts |
Will take a picture once the kiddies are in bed and post.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
It can definitely happen.
Been there, done that.
Moral of the story is....when the coin is not in the holder, never expect the same grade when re-submitting.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Here are the pics. My photography isn't the best, sorry about the glare. Thoughts?   |
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1411 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Bigger question... ANY signs of cleaning?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1411 Posts |
I'm not a Canadian Collector... I collect US (try to have not cleaned coins but they seem to get into my collection) and Ancients (ALWAYS CLEANED), so I can't tell very well... I'll leave that to others  |
|
Valued Member
Canada
331 Posts |
If multiple people can't tell the coin has been cleaned in hand, then it'll be very difficult / impossible to tell from photos. I can't see any sign of cleaning from the photos.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Any clue if MS-60 is just the grade that ICCS assigns to any uncirculated coin that has been cleaned? I think it's pretty clear that - unless cleaned - the coin is much nicer than 60.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9865 Posts |
Seems to be the default grade for such coins.There is no recourse wait a year or so and resubmit.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Thanks DBM. That's my usual plan!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
I've had a little experience with ICCS copper coins that have gone from ms60 cleaned to ms65 and I think I know exactly what to look for.
Hold the coin and under a bright light at 10X, angle and rotate the coin as you're looking at the surfaces.
If there are any parallel faint hairlines present at any one particular orientation, you can bet your bottom dollar ICCS will designate the coin as 'cleaned'.
If the hairlines are present and how did ICCS grade it an ms65 you ask?
Well at that time of grading they just plainly missed the hairlines.
|
| |
Replies: 30 / Views: 4,101 |
Posted 12/19/2012 4:28 pm
