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Debate - Terminology

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Valued Member
Ætheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
188 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  12:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ætheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
As a casual observer of the realm of errors, which I must confess is a relatively new field to me, I have noticed a few things that I find interesting. The one that intrigues me the most is the one i'd like to consider below;


It is the question of terminology. I'm afraid some error collectors have been mightily ticked off with me in the past when I last brought this up on a forum but it's something that I think is common sense. What is an error? What constitutes an error? Are all coins described as errors really that?

Well i'll take it one question at a time.

1) What is an error?

An error in a non-coin sense is something which is wrong, incorrect or an abberation. Most synonyms lead to the same conclusion an error is something which is simply not right or is mistaken.

Therefore when applied to coins it means a coin that has mistakes or something incorrect.


2) What consitutes an error?

Coins that could easily be classified as errors would be coins that have mistakes. So coins with spelling mistakes or incorrect dates are errors. Coins struck on wrong size planchets, struck in the wrong metal, have incorrect obverse/reverse alignment, wrong obverse/reverse match altogether. Coins with various bits missing, like outer cladding etc. All these I would agree are quite clearly erronous specimens and thus errors.


3) Are all coins described as Errors really that?

Well lets consider die cracks, filled in numbers/letters or chipped numbers/letters. What causes these defects?

Well the ultimate factor is usually due to wear on the die caused by the minting process. Older well used dies can cause many of these problems as bits chip off and debris fills the incuse parts of the die, or gets trapped in the fields. But are coins exhibiting these traits really 'errors' though?

Is it erronous that a die should wear and begin to show fatigue? Well every well used die goes through this process at some stage or later before being scrapped, so it's hardly a one off irregularity? In fact coins exhibiting patterns of die wear are struck using dies with flaws, and thus the coins themselves have 'die flaws'. Die flaws are very different to errors, flaws are minor imperfections caused by day to day use of dies. Errors are genuine mistakes.

Is a die crack a genuine mistake and thus an error or a die flaw from exhausted dies?

I think the term 'error' has become so much of a blanket term these days that it is beginning to be used erm erronously.

Any thoughts?

(Any spelling errors you find in the above are totally my own work, belong to me and are copyrighted...)
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Metalman's Avatar
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7123 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think you have captured the difference between errors and varieties !!

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Ætheling's Avatar
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188 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ætheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm 'ish'

Die flaws are certainly varieties but not all varities are die flaws. Confused?

Overdates are neither errors nor flaws, many overdates are done on purpose for economical reasons. Why scrap a perfectly good die just because the year has changed before you got to use it? So stamp the 1 over with a 2 and put it to good use. This is a variety that's not caused by die flaws.

However should this die wear down and get the number 4 filled in then it'd be a die flawed variety!
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 Posted 06/12/2005  1:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh My! You are begging for it aren't you? Since you decided to stir this pot, let me throw in my Two Cents.

Please remember that this is ONLY my opinion.

Errors: Multiple strikes, Doubled Dies, Brockerage, Wrong Planchet, Mules, Clashed dies, Off center. To a smaller degree: Clipped planchets, Broken planchets, Lamination.

Defective dies are "errors" in the term, and these would include, filled dies, die cracks, die breaks, die fatique, some doubling, blank planchets.

Now the latest rage is to find the most miniscule things and call it an error. While technically anything not intended would be an error, there should be some guidelines to follow.

Take the Mule coins. They are certainly not what the Mint intended, but they come out just as the dies intended them to be.
If a die gets scratched, is this an error? It will be accepted that way.
Add into the mix RPM, OMM, and you get a lot in the term "error"

To me, I love that people still look at their coins. Whether the scratch or break is an error or not, I could care less. It is GREAT for the hobby as a whole.
Edited by national dealer
06/12/2005 1:09 pm
Valued Member
Ætheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
188 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ætheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ND you should know me by now from my days over at Cointalk (as Sylvester), I'm always up for a numismatic debate! Or an all out argument...

I'm all for narrow precise definitions. And if you think I've got a narrow definition of error (which I have) you should see my definition of 'coin'. (Perhaps another day hey?)

As for the miniscule details and finding things wrong on a microscopic level well it might not surprise you that I've never owned a loupe, and I rarely look at my coins very closely, as long as it looks okay and problem free and has eye appeal it's in. When dealing in modern milled coins I usually dispose of error/flawed coins as imperfections.

Some might think this an hostile position to take with regards to errors. Well you have to remember than I specialise in hammered coins and in the hammered series off centre strikes, doubling and die cracks etc. All lower the value of the coins considerable. The whole point of hammered is exactly the opposite of error collecting. It's about striving for above average coins heading towards perfection.
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United States
703 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errorcoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmmm.... I pretty much agree with most of what I've read on the thread.

I break it down to major mint errors and minor mint errors.

I do have a collection of major mint errors...it's awesome!

Now we get to the minor mint errors...which I pretty much don't collect Except for the single issue Bison.

why?

Because I want to.

What I look for in the minor Bison errors is "Eye Appeal"

Is the die fill obstructing major elements of the design? Is the die crack, scratch, or gouge postioned in a way making the variety attractive, ie Wisconson leaf errors (which I didn't buy)

Anyway, I will be collecting all the varieties of the Bison with Great Eye Appeal.

Below is a very cool variety that I discovered, called "Two-Horned" Bison.

Yes it is best viewed with a Loupe...but still very cool in my opinion.








Download Attachment: Debate---Terminology a2horn.jpg
78.11 KB
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Metalman's Avatar
United States
7123 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  2:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Ætheling

Hmm 'ish'

Die flaws are certainly varieties but not all varities are die flaws. Confused?

Overdates are neither errors nor flaws, many overdates are done on purpose for economical reasons. Why scrap a perfectly good die just because the year has changed before you got to use it? So stamp the 1 over with a 2 and put it to good use. This is a variety that's not caused by die flaws.

However should this die wear down and get the number 4 filled in then it'd be a die flawed variety!



Looking at a narrow meaning, any die that is not perfect would be a flawed die, no matter how it became flawed, either through extensive use or by intentionally repunching the date or mint mark,,its an imperfect die thus flawed. which is why IMHO the term variety applies, is it an error? Opinions will vary and it really doesn't matter to me which term is used in conversation, but IMO its a variety.

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Ætheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
188 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ætheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well yeah that another way of looking at overdates. I hadn't thought of it quite like that.

But overall I think we are in agreement on pretty much everything there.
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2724 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Ætheling

ND you should know me by now from my days over at Cointalk (as Sylvester


At least when you were Sylvester, I could write your name. Now, I cannot make the keyboard type your name. There should be a law against it! Some of us are still technology challenged.
Valued Member
Ætheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
188 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ætheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alt + 146 might do it... might but your keyboard might be configured differently.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Æ Hey that actually worked. I learned something NEW today! I guess we will have to work on the English one day. I only speak American. and a pretty butchered American at that.
Valued Member
Ætheling's Avatar
United Kingdom
188 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2005  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ætheling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it had failed you could have just wrote the A and the E separately. Or just called me Syl.
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