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Replies: 48 / Views: 6,422 |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote: Forgot to answer...this coin is lightly-toned, with sort of pinkish edges with a touch of green, and orangish center. On my monitor the last image matches its color very well. OK, that's quite close to what I see, so let's assign this to me choosing what the coin should look like, rather than the guy who has it in his hand. Carry on.  I know my monitor is quite close on color, using my own images of coins whose in-hand color is known. All the same, I'm going to cast about for Internet posts regarding color correction for this model, to see what people have come up with for a profile.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
It's funny that you mention the idea of attaching the diffusor to the lens instead of a platform like I've been doing; it's something I've been thinking about but haven't gotten around to (I've been busy with life stuff, which is why I have been on the forums less and inactive with coins lately.) I did the platform thing because it was easy to do with stuff I had laying around (and I could experiment with the height), but I think the idea of attaching it to the filter threads would be ultimately nicer to work with.
I actually was thinking I would play with that idea at some point in the future when I had saved up enough money for a 3D printer. I could "manufacture" different diffusors with in different configurations.
I would love to have copies of the RAW files. I can see visible JPEG artifacts in the images you've posted here and on Photobucket, so I don't think I can appreciate the true sharpness. I could also render them in Lightroom with different RAW profiles, which would allow for a nice compare/contrast between DPP and Lightroom. I expect the biggest difference will be in color, but since they use different demosaicing algorithms, the sharpness might also be affected. I also have a custom RAW profile made specifically for the Jansjos, which gives me more accurate color with copper (I had another thread about that).
One tip with stacking (this is with Zerene; it may not apply if you're using something else) - IMO, using DMAP gets more "natural" results than PMAX. PMAX gives a stronger first impression because it can exaggerate contrast and sharpness (which increases as you use finer steps), but it also "oversharpens" and will add noise to the image (noise appears as stronger local contrast, so for any given pixel, PMAX will pick the frame that is sharp and has the greatest noise). DMAP is a bit more fussy, and requires some manual intervention, but I think the results are usually better.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Which begs the question: Which does more damage, the stacking process, or maybe reaching a bit into the diffusion zone to achieve enough depth of field to avoid stacking?
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
There is a third option: Stay out of diffraction territory but allow some areas of the image to be out of focus.
The problem is that with small coins we are right on the edge where it's not clear which is best. There is little benefit to open up the lens beyond the DLA limit, so for the T2i, with DLA of f/6.7, even f/4 is OK for Cents when you take the effects of AA filter into account. With extremely careful focusing on the surface of Lincoln's throat, and perfect stage flatness, you can pretty much get away without stacking at f/4 with the 75ARD1, and I was actually able to get an acceptably-sharp image at f/3.3 with the 105PN.
I need to try Zerene and Helicon to see if I have enough control over the process (as the 'Cap suggests) to make a better result. If so, then I expect the stacked image to be improved over the single.
Now, for other cameras with bigger pixels, such as the XS with a DLA of f/9.1, I can shoot at f/4.7 safely, and up to f/5.6 without a lot of degradation. This will give enough DOF that single images should be superior.
The lesson I've recently learned is that it gives little benefit to open aperture wider than needed to be within the DLA of the sensor you are using. This is a bit new to me but has been making a lot of sense.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
I almost always use my 75ARD1 at f/5.6 for the sake of consistency as much as anything else. I have avoided opening it all the way up to f/4 because I notice a loss in contrast or some sort of halation effect (which seems to get stronger if I get too far away from the optimal 1:1 magnification range). Is it just my copy?
I may try some comparisons between 4.7 and 5.6 to see if I can do better with that. There is one coin where I found f/5.6 had insufficient DOF (my shattered-die dime), so that ended up being my first focus-stacking experiment.
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
I think you're using a T3i, correct? Same sensor as my T2i, so your DLA is f/6.8. For a Dime, with diameter 18mm, full field the mag is 14.9/18=0.83, so at f/5.6 you are at feff=f/10.2, well into diffraction-limited territory. Even at f/4.7, you are diffraction-limited with Dimes, and the higher mag has shallower DOF vs Cents. I think the cutoff between getting away w/o stacking and needing to stack may be between Cents and Dimes with the 18MP Canons.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
Even f/4 would technically be diffraction limited. But like I said, there are other optical aberrations that some lenses will show when wide open that can affect sharpness (or perceived sharpness).
When I get time, I will experiment again with wider apertures, but practically, I won't normally be willing to go through the effort of focus stacking for most whole-coin images. If I'm using them at anything less than the original resolution, I'd be throwing the little bit of extra sharpness away anyhow.
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
The 75ARD1 field flatness degrades as you move away from 1:1 wide open. Lens degradations are unpredictable, so the aberrations you are seeing are likely due to whatever is affecting the sharpness (distortion, CA, etc).
I'm completely in agreement with you on not wanting to focus stack most of the time. I only want to go through that level of trouble on special shots, or of course as a demonstration or discussion topic. Most published shots are at 3-4x reduction, so you can technically shoot at a much smaller aperture and not see diffraction effects in the final image.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
With close to 4k vertical pixels in hand, and optical resolution that was literally unheard-of a couple years ago, why do they all have to fill the frame?
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
Of course they don't. I usually do frame my shots to nearly fill the frame, but for what I consider practical reasons. I want my final shots to be around 800x800. On the T2i, which is 3456 tall, I want the coin to be just inside 3200 tall, and then 4x reduced for publishing. The XS is 2592 tall, so I make the coin just inside 2400 tall, and reduce 3x. In the end you can't really tell which camera the shot was taken with. The reduced diffraction I get with the XS is offset by the smaller downsizing ratio...
edited to add:
Actually, the 105PN I'm using was built in the early 70's. We're talking 40 year old technology here and I literally, honestly have not identified a lens made before or since that can do what it can.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
Edited by rmpsrpms 04/17/2013 8:23 pm
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
High-quality optics doesn't cure all ills, but it's certainly pretty good medicine for the rest of them. 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
For ultimate sharpness, it would be possible to do a stack-and-stitch; both a focus stack and a panorama using a high NA microscope objective. This thread over at photomacography.net shows a configuration of a Nikon CFI 10X/0.25 Plan Achromat on a Canon 100mm macro. It's an infinity corrected objective (and is therefore intended to be used with a 200mm tube lens), so putting it on the 100mm means it's operating at about 5x. But it has a big enough image circle and still preforms really well at that magnification. A NA of 0.25 has an effective aperture of about f/10 at that magnification; the photographic lens equivalent of about f/1.7. It would be a lot of work, hundreds of individual frames, but an enterprising VAM fan could produce a 2 gigapixel image of a Morgan dollar.
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
Yep, been thinking about that. Finding an objective with low enough distortion and aberrations to stitch well is a tough problem. I've been testing 4x-5x objectives and found 3 that may be OK for this: Nikon 4x Plan APO CFI; Mitutoyo 5x M Plan Apo; and Nikon 5x MM. I actually have a Nikon 3x MM as well that might be up to the task. Running the 10 Nikon at 5x works only for a small part of the field. The corners are pretty weak in this configuration, so the final image will look like a mosaic. Of the 3 objectives I mentioned, I'd actually prefer doing something like this with the 5x MM since it has such long working distance. It would also need to be done with an XY stage to keep the coin from rotating and to make nice XY steps for the stitching. I'd also be worried about lighting, since as the coin moves the lighting angles will change, and you're back to a mosaic. How do you keep this from happening other than moving the camera vs the coin+lights? Somehow the lights and coin need to stay together...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
I actually did a 2 image panorama of an Eisenhower dollar at a time when my setup didn't let me get the whole thing in a frame. I was worried about the lighting creating a mosaic look, but you can't see the seam that easily. It would probably be worse with more images though. You've mentioned before that the 5x MM objective is nearly telecentric, which would make it ideal. But even if you moved the camera instead of the coin, or moved the lights with the coin, the luster might still move because the surface is partly reflective and light/coin/camera angle will change. That wouldn't be a problem on a subject like a flower or whatever that is mostly scattering light. Maybe the effect wouldn't be TOO big... I think that could be avoided by pivoting the camera/lens around it's "nodal point" (entrance pupil? I'm not sure what the correct terminology is) instead of panning it. But that would mean having much deeper stacks toward the edge of the coin because it wouldn't be flat to the lens.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I once did a 2x2 stitch of a Morgan (moving the coin) and Canon's proprietary software did not do well at all with the stitch. Left plenty of overlap - shot probably a third of the coin from each quadrant - and the circumference was perfectly aligned but the seams were noticeable. Is there better software out there?
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Replies: 48 / Views: 6,422 |