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Trying To Understand Gold's Intrinsic Value

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starbuxinvestor's Avatar
United Kingdom
616 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  12:26 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add starbuxinvestor to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
This is something I have pondered for several months now and I would like to have a civil and thoughtful discussion on. What I have for a long time tried to wrap my head around is why Gold is perceived to have intrinsic value and in essence why something dug up from the ground is inherently more valuable or different than something off a printing press. Even at $1,400/oz. in today's buying power Gold would make an illogical currency since people would literally be trading dust for the vast majority of purchases. Oil can be used for energy and power cars, corn can be consumed so I see their intrinsic values but is Gold irreplaceable in any critical function in the modern world. And if the U.S. economy collapses and we default on our debt who in the world would be left standing when the world's largest consumer stops buying and can't pay their credit card, certainly not the Chinese. So can someone help me understand the scenario where we have a world where Gold is hyper valuable? It seems to me if the U.S. were to collapse we would shoot past Gold to barter. This is a sincere question I really want to understand. Thanks.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ill start by saying were in no danger of collapse.

That said hypothetically if it happened I dont believe gold would be traded or really even PMs in the massive chaos if the world fell apart. Even as things normalized goods would be traded ect since gold doesn't feed your family.

But long story short gold is valuable because we say it is. Air water and food are the only things with a real intrisic value that you have to have, everything else we assign value to as humans. Gold has always been viewed as valuable so weve kept that going. Places like India it has very deep cultural roots to why they want it.

Its not likely as a species well change our mind on gold any time soon. Its basic value is another way to store wealth. Whether its a bank, or you want some for your own ect. In todays world that is a risky buy, 10 years ago though there wasnt any downside to it as gold was about as low as its ever been so the potential to make money was there. People seem to feel better for some reason too if a bank or government has a just in-case supply of it.

Gold is its most valuable during bad economic times. During the uncertainty its where a lot of money gets put to store their wealth and protect it as opposed to risking it in a stock market thats bleeding people dry. During the great Depression gold hit huge values for the time as it was a safe place to keep money. When times are good the value comes down especially when theres no good investments at the time. When theyre bad or uncertain people and big money go to gold for the potential upside but mostly the security. Like weve seen bank returns are basically nothing during a down time so thats not really appealing, and the stock market was not a good place to be if you werent very careful about where you put your money when things were going down. So that either leaves mattresses full of 100s or PMs and if you have a lot of money more specifically gold.

Will we ever see hyper inflated gold prices, highly doubtful unless we do something really stupid and put the economy in a terrible spot. During the great depression it was as hyper inflated as its every been and still wasnt at those 10k+ prices. As soon as WWII ended and things were good again that price came crashing down.

Long story short while gold isn't necessary anymore from a use standpoint (except india and some middle eastern cultures for traditional things like weddings ect) its something thats easy to get and store unlike trying to stock pile oil which actually is far more useful today.
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argentum's Avatar
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1195 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  02:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add argentum to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think what you are trying to drill down to, "Why has humanity assigned a value to Gold?" is an impossible one to answer.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  03:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All valuable things have value because of supply and demand. For gold, "supply" is low because it's comparatively scarce (compared to, say, iron, lead and aluminium). "Demand" is high primarily for historical and cultural reasons; although gold has some industrial uses in which it is irreplaceable, industrial use is only a small percentage of total gold consumption.

Gold was one of the few metals known in ancient times. Its low melting point and unwillingness to react chemically with other substances mean it is a very easy metal to refine and purify, once you find it; it's the finding that's hard. But being a very soft metal meant it never had much practical use (for swords, ploughs, tools, etc); the only thing it could do well was sit around and look pretty. And pretty it does look, being one of less than a handful of metals that are naturally coloured. And its chemical resistance means it stays pretty-looking, long after iron, copper, lead and most other metals known to the ancients have turned into a corroded mess.

Because gold has been with us and had this function in civilization for so long, it's difficult to imagine breaking away. Every major religion and philosophy both praises gold for it's purity and beauty and condemns people for their greed in pursuing it at any cost.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Demarco Bishopp's Avatar
United Kingdom
548 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  03:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Demarco Bishopp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a few reasons I found:

(1) Until the atomic bomb was invented, nothing on Earth could create or destroy gold. Gold does not oxidize (rust) or react with other compounds. It is inert.
(2) While gold is rare, it is not too rare. There is enough available to make it practical to use for money.
(3) A piece of gold can easily be divided into smaller pieces and smaller pieces can easily be combined into a larger piece.
(4) All gold is equal. One gold bar is worth the same amount as any other gold bar of the same weight, while one half-carat diamond may be worth much more than another half-carat diamond due to difference in cut, clarity, etc.
(5) Gold is easy to handle and store.
(6) It certainly does not hurt that gold is shiny and attractive to the human eye.
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starbuxinvestor's Avatar
United Kingdom
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 Posted 05/15/2013  08:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add starbuxinvestor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the very well reasoned responses. Many of these are things I have either concluded or read. I was asking because many seem to assign almost a magical property to gold for retaining value and for the most part that just seems to me to be based on tradition not anything intrinsic about the metal itself. I started wondering about this when I started trying to understand BitCoins which led to a larger understanding of currency which led me to the conclusion that anything that isn't used or consumed and is traded for good and services is a currency and then I stretched to all currency is Fiat currency. Layer on to that folks who bought Gold because of their belief in an impending collapse of the U.S. without regard to it's effect on the world economy or the fact Gold can't be digital transmited and it was hard to why some insist it will be used as a currency after that collapse. I could see that working if you lived in Cyprus and could take your Gold to countries with functioning economies after the collapse but with the U.S. position in the world economy it was hard to see how there would be any functioning economies left to flee to. It seemed to me if those predictions came true then guns, ammo, farm land and water sources plus a bunker would have been the investment to make. Good to hear that I don't think I am too far off base on this.
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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I honestly think women have a lot to do with it. Plus gold is easy to work with and doesn't rust away. In some ways I think humans are like magpies and like to hoard shinny stuff. What does a bird need with mirrors, coins, foil, etc? As far as I can tell it doesn't do the bird any good, but I've seen nests/roosts covered with shiney bling.

Given that mankind has some sort of 'need' for gold, and it's use is lost in what people would call myth/legends, I suspect we will continue to use it far into the future. As far as your comment about moving to a different economy, I think you are correct, but historically that economy hasn't always been one of location, that different economy can be in another time period. But I agree with you that farm land and a water source will be more important if the U.S. economy goes bad. I certainly don't believe it is going to go the way some people think it will happen, Mad Max style. But it could.

I am a self-loathing optimist.

Interesting story, my dad knew a man who was stuck in Poland when Germany invaded. He was able to avoid being sent to the concentration camps even though he was part Jewish in ancestry. He developed a scavenger type lifestyle where he would sleep during the day and then come out at night and look for food. At the time everybody had a little stash of gold, either coins or jewlery. So he would search empty houses and collect what he could find. After a while he had build up quite a bit of gold so he bought a rare stamp and then used what was left to bribe his way out of Poland and get to America. In America he was able to sell the stamp, which he had carefully packaged and sewn into his shirt, for a very nice sum of money.

While I applaude his resourcefulness I certainly am not going to start stamp collecting.

Apparently they did a documentry on the man a few years ago.
Edited by allranger
05/15/2013 2:35 pm
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fenton's Avatar
United States
4989 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2013  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gold has intrinsic value to humans because:

1. It is a rare element

2. It is difficult to mine

3. It is soft and highly malleable

4. It has a very unique color

5. It does not tarnish

6. Culturally, it has long been seen as way to safely store wealth

7. It is easy to transport thousands of dollars worth
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Demarco Bishopp's Avatar
United Kingdom
548 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2013  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Demarco Bishopp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To paraphrase a scene from the "Rome" TV series when Vorenus' daughter questions the purpose of wearing jewellery:

"Gold and jewels are not trivial. They show that you come from a rich and powerful family and that you are loved and protected and valued."

A lot of that rings true today.
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nalaberong's Avatar
Canada
2805 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2013  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nalaberong to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gold has a few sparing industrial uses. Not enough to justify its price alone (it's famous for being famous by now, really), but it's interesting what it's used for:

- Electronics: You knew this, right? It's not a great conductor like silver or copper, but it doesn't tarnish, so a thin plating helps protect copper wiring from chemical damage. This accounts for the vast majority of industrial use.
- Chemistry: Gold has some weird uses as a catalyst. Let's say you have tiny gold clusters of varying sizes (less than 100 atoms each). These break down carbon monoxide and convert it into carbon and oxygen. These gold nanoparticles are apparently used in some high-end gas masks. This area is still under heavy research, so we're bound to find some other weird uses eventually.
- Optics: Pure gold reflects infrared light very well. Another metal, germanium, is actually transparent to infrared. I couldn't tell you why, but if you only saw in infrared, think of all the shenanigans you could get up to with this.
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Libertad's Avatar
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2013  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Without having read the previous statements yet, let me explain the following.

Gold's intrinsic value comes from two factors. 1) Its labour involved to mine the metal, and 2) its extreme ease in creating immutable objects (in the ancient world!), and I define ancient as being pre-Industrial Revolution.

It costs a lot of labor to mine and to refine. We know that. Coinage came about as a result of refining, not the other way around. We can thank the Lydians for standard coinage, and the Romans for making sure it was accepted (by force!).

Why is gold valuable as a metal? Steel is so much stronger and titanium and niobium have much cooler artistic capabilities. The reason gold is valuable as metal is that it is EASY to forge, EASY to solder, EASY to polish, in the same way that diamonds are EASY to set when compared to emeralds (the reasons that emeralds are expensive are because they are beautiful, because afterall, cubic zirconium (cheap!) and moissanite (expensive in its natural form but can sythensized) have amazing refractivity and acceptable hardness in the jewelry world. Gold is malleable, ductile, and all of the good stuff - it is the most amazing metal of all, and it's way cooler than silver in every way.

Okay, however! gold is extremely outdated, as alternative materials are getting recognized as jewelry mediums, such as rubber, leather, and more extreme materials such as animal intestines, charcoal, UV-treated polymers, 3-D printed materials, dead animals (!), wood, and pretty much anything that you can think of. If metal is your thing, then gold is tops. If stones are your thing, then wait until there are no more diamond cartels. But overall, the "craft" is taking over under the name of "design".

As a monetary metal, steel, in my opinion, is tops. Sad to say, but do we use gold as money? No. No. We use steel, copper-nickel, aluminum, and other industrial metals. Gold is extremely reflective, and very very easy to work with. Technological advances have not been improved as a direct result of gold, but that gold artisan work has benefitted FROM technological advances.

And we have been off the gold standard for almost a hundred years now. As much as I see "value" in gold, we also must see value in LABOR. Labor is where we must put value, and in industry also. Gold is not "valuable", but it can be MADE valuable through skilled labor. Every medium is important now and we must show its value to the world. Platinum should be THE ultimate.
Edited by Libertad
05/17/2013 10:13 pm
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