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A Few Newbie Grading Q's

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New Member

United States
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 Posted 07/05/2013  12:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Taunom to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
With many new proof coins the mint is producing 40,000 units. They seem to sell 20,000 singly and the remaining 20,000 with sets
I understand they are stamped one at a time, but are there multiple dies made so more than one person can be doing it at the same time? Are the dies replaced with fresh ones after say a 1,000 stampings? How long does it take the mint to produce the full 40,000?
Does early release, first strike, or fdoi have any relevance on proof coins when the production is so low?
Some proof 70 coins are ultra cameo, others dcam, others cameo, and yet others have no cameo grade at all. When grading a proof is the cameo question judge for each and every proof coin. How can a proof be top of the line 70 yet bottom of the line no cameo?
One last one. I saw on hsn two gold coins - one proof 70, one ms70 - both were 2013.
They wanted more for the mint than the proof. Can that be explained?
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2013  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


The Sheldon Scale of grading has two important criteria:
1) Amount of wear on circulated coins
2) Amount of bag marks or other other contact marks on uncirculated coins

In neither case is eye appeal taken into consideration. Cameos fall into the eye appeal category
and are prized by some collectors.

The mintage of proof coins often exceeds the mintage of regular issue coins.
Thus the occasional price difference.

I'll leave the technical mintage process to others.

Welcome aboard!
Edited by matthewvincent
07/05/2013 2:32 pm
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fioti's Avatar
United States
4212 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2013  3:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"I'll leave the technical mintage process to others"

Dont make me call you out, this is where you come in, it's your intro.
Nobody does it better.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2013  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm reasonably sure that Proofs are struck on special presses, given that Business Strikes are done at a rate of something like 150 per minute per press. That's the only way you can produce 300 million of a given issue....

Proofs, of course, require far more careful minting, but with sufficient automation in the handling process I can't see any reason why you couldn't create one in less than 10 seconds. That being the case, a run of (per your sample) 40,000 is only a few day's work for one press, and it's reasonable to assume (as you did) that more than one press is available for service. If nothing else, because there are a number of different Proof issues being struck at the same time.

A Business Strike die is capable of a six-digit production run. The same cannot be expected of a Proof die pair, but it isn't unreasonable to expect a few thousand coins from a single die pair. As the microsurface of the die wears away, it ceases being able to strike Deep Cameo coins, into the Cameo category and finally unable to strike with any cameo at all. This, however, can be restored through a polishing process. The Mint is very, very good at it, evidenced by the preponderance of Deep Cameo strikes in the entire runs of Modern Proof strikings.

Even if worn to the point of being able to impart no cameo, though, a given die is still capable of striking a 70 because that grade isn't a function of the surface finish but the detail and accuracy of the strike.

The reason why MS70's are more expensive than PF70's is simple: the Business Strike production system does not lend itself to producing 70's. Remember, we're talking about 150 per minute, and that requires rapid handling after the strike as well as during. Very few coins survive that process unscathed. In fact, there are many Modern issues which get quite pricey at the MS67 level, much less 70.
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2013  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
fioti,

Was that a threat or a challenge? {perhaps a compliment?]
I teach what I know and I bow to others for what I do not know.

Ddave gave a great overview of the minting process for both proof and regular strike.
I'll just read and learn from him.
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
United States
5854 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2013  1:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have too much more to add on to SsuperDdave's post. Proofs, especially the kind with mirror like fields(majority of modern proofs), will be judged for cameo and Dcam. There are exceptions, like matte proofs, which are not judged for cameo or Dcam since the entire surface has a frosted appearance. Cameo is judged independently of the numerical grade and can still grade PR-70 provided it meets the criteria for the grade.

After doing a little bit of researching, I've found on the U.S mint site that as of 2006, they were making an average of 6000 coins per pair for uncirculated American eagle and buffalo bullion coins, 1500 for the proof buffalo, and 300-500 for proof American eagles. A more recent 6/24/13 Coin World article states the die life is averaging 1800 for the enhanced silver eagles, 2000 for the reverse proof silver eagles, and nearly 2300 for the regular proof silver eagles.
Edited by D0ubl3Eagle
07/06/2013 1:04 pm
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WashQuartJesse's Avatar
United States
173 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2013  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WashQuartJesse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Does early release, first strike, or fdoi have any relevance on proof coins when the production is so low?"

I'd say relatively little compared to decades ago when proof processes were far different than today's. At that time, the only true snow white coins were what... the
first dozen or so struck on a fresh die?
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2013  02:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Taunom: Welcome to the CCF!

SsuperDdave is correct. I have seen dedicated slow speed presses for proof coins used at both the Perth Mint and the Royal Australian Mint in Canberra.
Each press is continuously attended by an operator, and each coin is examined quickly by the operator, immediately after it is ejected by the press.

Modern NCLT proof coins are contrived. The incused surfaces of the dies are laser etched, and the fields of the die are diamond polished. The planchet surfaces are also polished before striking.

For me, the grading of an 'as struck' NCLT proof coin under these manufacturing standards is pretty much of a nonsense, despite the fact that the quality of the strike can vary, depending on how much quality control the mint is prepared to invest in a particular product.

What should be judged under these circumstances is not the condition of the coin, but the quality of the strike. I have seen some poor quality proof coins, notably from the Valcambio Mint (Italy).
I don't think the Sheldon grading system is appropriate to judge quality of strike only.
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