How Long Does Toning Take?

Toning a coin takes about as long as getting to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop.

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Metal Man, you said "DD artificial toning and Natural toning are two entirely different things

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And I stand by that statement .

If they were the same the Idea of having coin doctors would be a non issue .

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Let's see how we are defining "natural" toning. A silver coin will gain a black or brown tarnish natural over time. If it displays color then it was stored unnaturally and this cannot be called "natural" toning. Of course, there are always exceptions to any rule. But silver coins usually don't look nice after true silver tarnish or toning occurs.

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This is where you are mis understanding environmental affects on coins ,, experianced coin collectors know that there is a preffered method of coin storage ,,but most people do not realise the affects of heat,cold ,humidity, socks or other materials which are present where they put their coins,some keep them in jars ,cans jewelry boxes and many other locations, bank vaults and safety deposit boxes etc.

These coins are not considered to be un naturally stored ,,but actually coin collectors would be the ones viewed as storing their coins in un natural ways by encapsulation in slabs and airtites and other similar devices.

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Now, if a coin "doctor" can achieve the same quality of toning then who is to say this toning is not natural?

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I do not believe that coin doctors can achieve the same toning !!
But that is only one aspect of doctoring coins, there is also waxing,painting ,lacquering,greasing, and a myriad of other things that are used to enhance the appearance of a coin to trick the eye into believing that the coin is better than it really is.

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I must disagree. Natural and unnatural toning are very difficult to discern.

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In some cases I agree that it is difficult to spot ,, but being difficult to see and to learn the difference does not make it right ,, as an example a counterfeiter of US currency can make very good counterfeits ,,but they are still fake and are used to defraud the business owners of legal tender currency ,, shoud this be considered OK just because the bills are hard to tell from real ones ?

Metalman

So, then. Rainbow toning is a result of fortuitous accidents? It would seem that once achieved, even if it took years, the accidents would be repeated to produce an unnaturally large number of rainbow toned coins.

My personal thought is that the only natural toning occurs when coins are used as they were meant to be used: circulating, in people's wallets and pockets. This results in coins that are shiny, worn and in general not very attractive. The very act of holding coins out of circulation is artificial, whether uncirculated in bags, or in SD boxes, or in dynamite boxes, or cigar boxes, or coin books. ALL of these are artificial toning techniques. Some produce rainbows, some produce tarnish, but none of them has the original toning created by circulation. Consider Redman's exploded peaches-stained Morgans: an excellent example of accidental but still artificial toning. Even though they are obviously tampered with, they are still avidly collected.

So there is acceptable artificial toning which results from ageing and varying storage conditions (ie a coin book's sulfur content), and there is unacceptable artificial toning which results from heat and chemistry. How does one draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable?

It seems as though many of us have a bias agains toning that (a) is the result of a premeditated human act, and (b) happens quickly (minutes, hours or a few days), but have little problem with toning that is random and happens over years or decades.

First, we are talking about toning, and other types of coin doctoring is irrelevant to the argument.

Now, I understand perfectly the affects different environmental elements have on metal coins. I also can prove, if I had the funds, that a person can buy a BU roll of Morgan silver dollars and subject them to certain elements that will tone the coin, and the majority will not tone desirably.

We DO know how to artificially tone coins with rainbow affects, but who wants to take a chance of ruining several coins in roll just to get a couple toned nicely?

I repeat, not all coins from the same mint, date, roll, bag or collection will tone the same when subjected to the very same elements.

It takes years of experience to discern how certain coins are toned. In example, album toning looks different than end roll toning and both are different from "heat" toning.

However, desirable examples can be found with all three examples of toning.

Furthermore, if I place a coin in a sock drawer because I know it will tone and be more desirable, then I take another coin and place it in an old album that has (edited) has "acetate" slides, then I take another coin and subject it to heat and sulphur fumes.

Now, all three coins come out with desirable toning that appears natural. What did I do wrong? It is all a matter of opinion. And unless I damaged the coins and sell then as a damage free coins, then I have not I violated any ethics.

One would be surprised at the amount of Silver Dollars, that have been unnaturally altered, for sale, in collections and/or graded by the top companies in the business.

We can debate about ethics, natural, unnatural toning and the differences thereof, but it is entirely possible the beautifully toned coin or that high grade and bright white specimen you cherish in your collection may have, in the past, achieved it most desirable quality by the hands of another.

All his life my grandfather has been a dealer and so has my father since the 1950's, and I have since the 1970's. I grew up in a coin shop, and remember when we bought silver coins by the barrel full.

I have seen coins in every type of condition and altered state imaginable. However, I don't claim to know it all, but what I say comes from a lot of experience and teaching.

Another thing, I, for one, will never sell a coin if I know how it was toned without first telling how it was toned. So, the value of the coin depends on the buyer. I believe in honesty and integrity and my statements in no way reflect a tolerance for altering coins to cover up problems or to sell for greater profits.

I agree there is issues with coin doctors because they are in business to cheat the buyer. I do not condone this behaviour.

I did mean acetate plastic slides for albums from the 1920's and up. But they are not inert, it was popular to place coins in the albums for toning. You can find one refernce to this in the Whitman Photograde Guide.

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It seems as though many of us have a bias agains toning that (a) is the result of a premeditated human act, and (b) happens quickly (minutes, hours or a few days), but have little problem with toning that is random and happens over years or decades.

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Hunter, I think you really hit the nail on the head. People accept the toning IF a: it happened by accident, and b: it happened over a long period of time. I'm also one of those people.

metalman

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I do not believe that coin doctors can achieve the same toning !!

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But why not? If the exact cause for such toning could be known, why couldn't it be repeated?