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 Replies: 19 / Views: 5,986 |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
I bought a Gallienus Panther which turns out to be "Striped Tigress walking left" as below. Both descriptions have been given the same RIC 230 number on wildwinds. I can understand that the tigress may have been mistaken for the panther in the past, but as they are two distinct animals, why should they share the same RIC number on wildwinds? I checked RIC it does not mention a tigress. Why give it an RIC number at all?   |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Not a bad coin but I have to admit, I can't identify the feline on it. Perhaps that is also the problem that Wildwinds has.
To increase the possibility of a correct decision on the species I would need quite few coins of similar type and the application of brain grease (not elbow grease), and the contemplation of my navel for a while, then guess.
Would help if there was some evidence provided by a contemporary written document to shed more light on the species of feline.
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Pillar of the Community
 United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
If you've not already seen it this is a good site: http://www.lunalucifera.com/Zoo/liber.htmlMust admit I'm a bit skeptical, individual celetor styles could pretty easily account for all the slight differences. Also how easy would it have been for a die cutter to get a panther or tigress anatomically correct back then. An overall description of 'big cat' may be better. Very attractive reverse on yours pishpash, love the cat whatever it is  |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Bobby, great site, no I had not seen it before. Really interesting stuff!
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Edited by Masis
10/10/2013 6:34 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Thanks Masis, no longer fretting! Bobby's link was really helpful, not seen that site before. If we are going to get really picky, wildwinds example of a panther looks more like a cheetah to me http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear/s2978.3.jpg |
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Valued Member
United States
61 Posts |
How can you tell those are stripes? I think it would be an impossible task for even the most talented engraver to represent in relief differences in color and contrast. The logical thing would be to presume that that's, you know, a rib cage and teats. In all cases I'd say these are panthers.
Ras
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Rasiel, the stripes go up the neck as well as on the body, so not just on the ribcage. The celator did pretty will with my coin. Have a look at the link that BobbyHelmet posted.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Or it could be a Panther that is really emaciated and its skin is creased. Not really a type of powerful symbol an Emperor would want to show to the public.  Reading on the God, Liber: " His cult and functions were increasingly associated with Romanised forms of Greek Bacchus and Dionysus, whose mythologies he came to share." Bacchus is just the Roman version of the Greek Dionysos. As shown in the mosaic of Bacchus riding on a Tiger, it shows that Liber was associated with Bacchus, and so the Tiger would be associated also with Liber. Dionysus seems to more often be depicted riding a Leopard.  http://www.lookandlearn.com/history...ysius+M |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Strange that all the "stripy" panthers have teats. Anything symbolic about a tigress rather than a tiger?
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
As to a Tigress per se, I have not read any mention of Bacchus riding only a Tigress but that:
"Bacchus was euhemerised as a wandering hero, conqueror and founder of cities. In some Roman sources, the ritual procession of Bacchus in a tiger-drawn chariot, surrounded by Maenads, Satyrs and drunks, commemorates the God's triumphant return from the conquest of India."
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Just to chuck a bit more mud in these waters a 'panther' is usually just a black leopard although black jaguars and cougars are also often known as 'panthers'. The Panthera genus derives from latin and includes the tiger, the lion, the jaguar, and the leopard. Calling them all 'panthers' is not necessarily incorrect but also not fully correct. I suspect the writers of RIC either didn't notice the variants (if there are any, still not convinced) or noticed and didn't care so just lumped them under one number. This hobby is full of details like this that one finds amazing and another not. Who is to say who is correct. The Zoo coins are great to collect  |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
I am happy to record my coin as a tigress, but I will also note that there is some controversy on the subject. Thanks for all the comments.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Quote:
Just to chuck a bit more mud in these waters a 'panther' is usually just a black leopard although black jaguars and cougars are also often known as 'panthers'.~bobbyhelmet I was pondering this as well. To us "English-English" speakers, a Panther is a "black" Leopard. Period. Ancient Mariner Conspiracy Theories aside, I doubt the Romans had access to the "black" Jaguars of South America. Knowing now that Liber became associated with Bacchus, and Bacchus was depicted being driven in a Chariot by Tigers or riding a Tiger, then for this issue of coin the description of Tiger is more apt. Ann's example is a Very Fine example since it depicts the Tigress properly. Below are two examples I bought last year, and the quality is typical of the Antoninianii struck in Gallienus' sole rule. Poor. However the Teats are noticeable on both examples. So if most of the issues were poor, then fine details such as Stripes would not be bothered with or engraved properly into the Die. So we have a big, descriptionless Cat. Unless of course we look into the meaning of the reverse legend, Liber etc etc. Thank's to Ann's example I will now revise the descriptions for my two examples from "Panther (Black Leopard)" to the more appropriate description of Tigress.   Edited by Masis
10/11/2013 1:23 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4973 Posts |
whichever cat that is, the surfaces on that coin are very nice. pretty!
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Replies: 19 / Views: 5,986 |
Posted 10/10/2013 06:06 am
