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Roman Matrix Seal

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 2,117Next Topic  
New Member

United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  12:55 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi, I would be very grateful if anyone can say anything about this Roman seal, its very unusual with 3 different sides. On one side is coat of arms hard to recognize with horse above it, 2. side depicting something similar to the bird of paradise and on the 3. side are laurel leaves with some kind of rhomboids in the middle and crown above. We think its gold but not sure. Many thanks in advance

Roman-Matrix-Seal
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philadelphian's Avatar
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome!
What you have is a triple matrix swivel fob seal. These tend to date from the late 17th to early 18th century; a better look at the heraldry in the matrices might help us to pin it down better.
Edited by philadelphian
02/03/2014 2:41 pm
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it has a "coat of arms" on it, it certainly isn't ancient Roman. Coats of arms were not invented until the Crusader era.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
many thanks to both of you will try to take a better pictures soon
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2014  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here is couple more pictures

Roman-Matrix-Seal

Roman-Matrix-Seal

Roman-Matrix-Seal
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philadelphian's Avatar
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  09:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It seems one face of these triple seals tends to be reserved for a monogram. I believe this is your first pic. The three diamonds are formed by an ornate W and M atop one another. I believe the M stands for the surname, as the second pic's arms are flanked by what look like two M's. The crest of these arms (above a helmet above a shield) seems to show the head and neck of a swan. The crest in the third pic is a bird with wings outstretched, I think also with a curved swan's neck. I think I see, in the main arms of the third pic, the curved neck and head of yet another swan. The last few letters of a motto are visible at the upper left; an H, perhaps followed by a T (remember, this image is backwards). There are English families by the name of Moore, particularly in Shropshire in the 17th century, that had varieties of arms with a swan figure, paired with either a swan or swan's head as the crest.
Another thing: the arms in the second pic are in the form of a shield, which usually indicates a man, but the third pic has them in an oval, which was the presentation for armigerous women. Husband and wife?
Let us know if you find out any more!
Edited by philadelphian
02/04/2014 12:32 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  10:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thank you so much for all those informations, I am very very grateful to all of you
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HI, just to let you know that I found one very similar in British museum ( http://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...40&partId=1) ,surprisingly that one has the same MM initials but what strikes me the most is that handle of the seal is exactly the same which means that both seals are made by the same maker. Anyway I am still confused as I can't make any connection yet, my seal came from Sirmium (former Yugoslavia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirmium ). I took some pictures comparing both seals and will post them later, Again I would be very grateful to hear your opinion :)
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  12:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Roman-Matrix-Seal

Roman-Matrix-Seal

Roman-Matrix-Seal

Roman-Matrix-Seal
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The link to the British Museum doesn't work, but I noticed that one of the designs resembles a symbol associated with Scotland--a thistle flower flanked by two leaves.
The center design gives the general idea of what it looks like:

Roman-Matrix-Seal
Edited by DVCollector
02/18/2014 4:39 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks for your reply, I think that isn't a thistle, it's more like a swan or a mistical phoenix bird, there is a link again maybe this time will work http://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...740&partId=1
museum number:1996,0705.1
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see that now--thanks for the link. Obviously, the details and construction may suggest they're from the same general region, date, or perhaps even maker.
By the way, I wasn't thinking of the seal design that appears to have wings, but the one with the crown over the flower/leaves. Here's another rendition with the crown:

Roman-Matrix-Seal

Edited by DVCollector
02/18/2014 8:42 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2014  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matrix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes now I know what you meant and it looks quite similar... thanks for pointing to that , I will try to research some more coat of arms then... thanks a lot
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