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Ancient. Parthian? Mithradates? ID Please!

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Tom Goodheart's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2014  05:53 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A friend asked about this:

Ancient.--Parthian?--Mithradates?--ID-Please!

Not my thing at all, so I wondered whether some of you knowledgeable Ladies or Gents could provide me with some ideas. Who, when, etc ..

And if you have any relevant reference number for it, if such a thing exists, that would be he icing on the cake!

Many thanks, Tom.

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
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echizento's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 02/04/2014  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not my area of collecting yet, but I believe the coin is Phraates III.
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pishpash's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2014  08:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ancientnoob can probably give you more info.

There is a similar coin on acsearch but it is part of a lot and specific information is not given. However, having said that, it is similar and not the same. The shape of the bow is different and the letters look more "blobby" than the one in your picture.

Search acsearch for Phraates III.
http://www.acsearch.info/ext_image.html?id=551677

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chrsmat71's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2014  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrsmat71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
my first thougth was orodes i...but I could be wrong. absolutely parthian.
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Masis's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2014  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Masis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Reminds me mostly of my own example of Gotarzes I, Arsacid king of Iran, 87-79 B.C.

3.99 g, 23 mm, Ecbatana, Sellwood 29.1


Ancient.--Parthian?--Mithradates?--ID-Please!
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pishpash's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2014  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The bow looks right on that one Masis.
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Tom Goodheart's Avatar
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 Posted 02/05/2014  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys. Getting close, but it'd be nice to pin it down if possible. So any more ideas are still welcome!
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ThisIsFun's Avatar
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 Posted 02/05/2014  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ThisIsFun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I haven't looked closely at your coin and you can probably discern the legends in hand better than we can in pictures, so here's a handy link which will help you match the legend to the issuer:

http://www.parthia.com/parthia_inscriptions.htm

The site also shows a plethora of coins for each ruler.
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Tom Goodheart's Avatar
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 Posted 02/06/2014  05:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ooh, thanks for that TIF!
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Ancientnoob's Avatar
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 Posted 02/06/2014  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Masis I believe is correct it is Gotarzes I 87-79 BC
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
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 Posted 02/06/2014  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
New here to the board. Tom, your coin is a Sellwood type 31, specifically a Sellwood 31.5 or 31.6. It's impossible to pin it down further since the star on the tiara, which is the distinguishing feature that differentiates these attributions, is worn down

In The Coinage of Parthia (1980) Sellwood attributed the type 31's to Orodes I (90-80 BC). Fred Shore, in "Parthian Coins and History: Ten Dragons Against Rome" (1993) respected Sellwood's attribution of the type 31's. The equivalent Shore numbers for your coin would be Shore 122-124 â€" again, it's not possible to pin it down further due to the wear on the tiara.

However, more recently Dr. G. R. F. Assar reattributed the Sellwood type 31's to a "new" king named Mithradates III, and most knowledgeable dealers have accepted his scholarship. (Having said that, I still typically use Sellwood's numbers for my own collection...I just find it easier to stick with the standard reference, meaning Sellwood, for my own cataloging)

Respectfully, Masis: your coin is not a Sellwood 29.1 but, rather, another type 31 (Orodes I/Mithradates III) like Tom's. Sellwood type 29's cover coinage issued by Mithradates II (father of Mithradates III), and thus not Gotarzes I. It is VERY common for all of these issues (tiara-type drachms of Mithradates II, Gotarzes I, and the type 31 drachms of Orodes I/Mithradates III) to be confused with one another by well-intentioned dealers who may not handle a lot of Parthians. The easiest, quickest way to spot the difference is the number of lines at the bottom of the reverse legend: Orodes I/Mithra III legends, as in both Tom's example and yours, will have two lines at the bottom, whereas Mithra II tiara-type drachms (Sellwood 28's and 29's), as well as Gotarzes I tiara-types, will always have just one line at the bottom. Furthermore, Gotarzes I drachms (Sellwood 33's) will always have decorative elements (birds or stags) radiating out from the top of the tiara.

I hope this helps!

Bob L.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/ga...p?album=3627
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/ga...p?album=3628
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http://www.forumancientcoins.com/ga...p?album=3637
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dwayne8625's Avatar
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 Posted 02/07/2014  01:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dwayne8625 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, that is a very informative post.
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Masis's Avatar
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 Posted 02/07/2014  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Masis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
& Thank you Bob, it is always good to learn!
I will now update my notepad file on "Gotarzes I" to "Orodes I/Mithradates III" Sellwood type 31.

I was browsing on Google images for examples of Orodes I and Mithradates III.

I find that in detail my example is most like "Mithradates III" comparing it to the example below, first left:
Ancient.--Parthian?--Mithradates?--ID-Please!
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Histo...thian-st.htm
Coincidentally that image is from an article written by Dr. G. R. Assar.
Edited by Masis
02/07/2014 08:29 am
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 02/07/2014  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the community Bob.
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
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 Posted 02/07/2014  10:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, all, for the welcoming messages.

The image that Masis posted this morn (well, morning in my neck of the woods anyway) illustrates yet more reassignments by Dr. Assar, with figure 5 having been changed from Sellwood's attribution of Orodes I to Mithradates III, figure 6 being reassigned from Sellwood's Sinatruces to Orodes I, and figure 7 being switched from Sellwood's "Unknown King II" to Artabanus II "?" (the question mark being Assar's).

The reattributions can be frustrating at times for Parthian collectors. As I said in my previous post, I just stick with Sellwood's 1980 assignments for my own cataloging, even though this leaves me a bit out of touch with current studies. I'm basically just too lazy to make the changes. However, I suspect that the majority of Assar's reattributions are valid. Since David Sellwood's death about two years ago, Assar may well be the world's leading authority on the coinage.

Supposedly the "Sylloge Nummorum Parthicorum," a huge nine-volume set that is currently underway, will be the definitive reference for Parthian attributions. Volume VII, covering the reigns of Vologases I through Artabanus III (Sellwood types 68 through 77), is already in print. When complete, the nine volumes will document approximately 17,000 coins from the collections of a number of museums worldwide.

Probably more than anyone wanted to know...

Bob
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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 Posted 02/07/2014  11:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great info - welcome Bob
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