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I Challenge You To Change My Mind

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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  02:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Spoiler Alert: this thread is ultimately going to be partly about the famous stolen double eagles but not in the usual boring been there done that style debate. Its going to be a challenge to you to change my mind about why the government should have cared.

The famous double eagle got mentioned in a thread recently that got me thinking why on earth was so much effort put into hunting them down. My first thought is it was an Agent trying to build their career much like the IRS agent who wasted 10s of millions trying to bag the 12 point buck known as Barry Bonds who ultimately also committed massive abuses of power in his quest.

Now obviously this isn't as extreme of an instance as that IRS agent, but at the same time I keep coming to the same conclusion that it was a massive waste of government resources and money. Spending 10s of millions over several decades chasing down a miniscule amount of coins that wouldnt even have circulated. Its even worse when you consider the gold was accounted for so they werent even trying to collect a debt.

Now the one rational explanation I can think of is from a diplomatic side. Once one of the coins ended up in the hands of an American ally in the Middle East as the only legal one, chasing the others could be taken as a diplomatic effort in a region where friendlys are few and far between. The problem with that though is its not really enough to make a difference and since he was a huge collector anyway I suspect he probably would have liked the chance to acquire more.

So heres my challenge to you, I am curious to see if anyone can chance my mind that it was a necessary expense hunting those down. The question isn't whether or not they were stolen or even legal, but rather or not caring can be justified from a cost benefit analysis. They werent fakes being produced, they werent going to harm the money supply or even affect the economy in any way other than bring in a lot of taxes with their sales, and it wasnt something that could be repeated with a few simple policy changes at the mint.

In other words a lot of money and man hours were spent on these coins with at best the most minimal insignificant reward from the governments perspective.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  04:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Think it's all to do with crediblity - cost is another thing by it's own.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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noD's Avatar
United States
1584 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  06:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
justified from a cost benefit analysis


You are assuming governments make law enforcement decisions and or take action based on cost benefit analysis. It often doesn't and shouldn't work this way.
Few of us always agree with the laws or the ways laws are enforced, but laws need to be enforced.
We have it soooo good compared to many other countries.
I'd like to hear your plan for a better system.
Edited by noD
02/14/2014 06:47 am
Valued Member
Australia
315 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  06:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsaus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Governments always try to find a way to throw money away
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Fat Freddy's Avatar
United States
1200 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  10:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fat Freddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All other considerations (including cost/benefit justification) aside...
1---Without indisputable, authentic and legitimate documentation of Mint-authorized ownership of these coins, the coins have to be considered stolen.
Verbal allegations the coins were a gift (ha,ha!) without documentation don't count.
2---Allowing property stolen from the Mint to be legitimized by time and undocumented, unsubstantiated verbal allegations is an admission of weakness
by the Mint and the federal government. It would also make the Mint/govt a laughing stock and open the door to legitimization of future thefts.

I think The Powers That Be just can't allow that to happen.
Rest in Peace
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jgfindring's Avatar
United States
1380 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  10:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgfindring to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But the Mint did just that with the 1913 Liberty nickels. They were without question stolen from the mint.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
188770 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not getting near this one. Not yet anyway.

That being said, remember to attack the idea, not the person.

Carry on.
Valued Member
United States
110 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Duncan_Doenitz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the government decided to enforce laws on a cost-benefit basis, the rich would never be prosecuted, and the mere threat of outspending the authorities would be enough to assure it.

Albert, my old landlord in Minneapolis, would actually get nervous and look over his shoulder before telling the story of how a friend convinced him they should make fake dimes out of silver spoons. It was a foolish venture of course, and knowing Albert, nobody was fooled, but Federal agents tracked them down immediately.

Obviously it was more of a prank than a get-rich scheme, but the Feds really put some effort into catching and scaring the perpetrators, and Albert's Life of Crime was over.

Was it cost-effective for three agents to spend the time on small time crook Albert? Not if you consider the case by itself, but as a lesson to other potential counterfeiters, that is exactly the message that needs to be sent, that no crook is too small to be tracked down. Or too big to be brought down, either.

You know the old saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." It's absolutely true.

I'm just saying...

-Duncan
Edited by Duncan_Doenitz
02/14/2014 12:03 pm
Bedrock of the Community
basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  3:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'd like to hear your plan for a better system.


One that doesn't bankrupt itself chasing its tail over trivial issues in the big picture of things. Like someone else mentioned they had ignored it in the past without any consequences on the economy.

From small towns up to the top of the food chain in Washington decisions are made every day about what matters and what doesn't from an enforcement side. That money could have been far better used on WWII, the cold war, preventing the rise of the mob/bringing them down ect.

Our habit of throwing massive amounts of resources (mainly money) at everything will eventually be our down fall. Its just not a sustainable practice when the slightest thing can trigger multimillion dollar responses


Quote:
It would also make the Mint/govt a laughing stock and open the door to legitimization of future thefts.


The legitimization of future thefts is an interesting argument to make. For the sake of the argument we will say they were stolen without a doubt. If someone had broken in and stolen them, or robbed a mint employee of them, or ripped off a shipment I would agree that would be enough to justify it to discourage it from happening again.

I do see a couple problems with that in this case though. The biggest problem to me is that the circumstances even making this possible are so incredibly unique its not likely to be something where the opportunity is even present very often. The 64 Peace dollar comes to mind as the next chance one would have really had to do the same thing. So youre already taking about something that happens 2 maybe 3 times a century where indecision from the government creates the circumstance in the first place.

The other problem though is that its something that can easily be corrected from within the mint. Dont allow someone to access coins by themselves, if a bag has been opened from when it was sealed check the contents before melting, check peoples pockets when they leave ect. Obviously they didnt have a crystal ball at the time, but now with video surveillance its even more of a non issue.

I could even buy this argument for the initial response to it, but to continue it 40, 50, 60+ years later when who ever took them is certainly dead seems like a waste of money. Theres certainly certain actions that are worthy of that type of attention and expenditure, I just dont see how this is one of them with how easy it is to make sure it doesn't happen again.


Quote:
If the government decided to enforce laws on a cost-benefit basis, the rich would never be prosecuted, and the mere threat of outspending the authorities would be enough to assure it.


Thats certainly true. Its not that I believe every action should be a net positive, but at the same time we shouldnt ignore whats being spent versus what is really being gained. In the case of say tax fraud, you spend the money to discourage others from doing it which is the same case with a bombing or murder. However, in this case you already have full control over whether or not someone even has the opportunity/ability to do it.

Like I mentioned above a perfect storm of a very unique circumstance and lax policies at the mint had to come together to even present the chance which is something that was highly unlikely to repeat itself. With technology today a fraction of the money spent on the investigation can make it essentially impossible to repeat it which is an expense they would have invested in regardless of whether this ever happened.


Quote:
Was it cost-effective for three agents to spend the time on small time crook Albert? Not if you consider the case by itself, but as a lesson to other potential counterfeiters, that is exactly the message that needs to be sent, that no crook is too small to be tracked down.


I completely agree with this in the case of someone making fakes or making their own money. Theres a larger issue at stake there and thats something not under their direct control to begin with. Something like that you need to put on a show to scare people from doing it. But again an important distinction between the two is that with removing items from the mint you can simply secure the mint more and youve solved the problem. Its not something that anyone anywhere could do were you can argue the need for a deterrent, its a very small number of people who the government directly controls what type of access they have. In this case the number of people who could have done it could have probably been counted on one hand. It wasnt extremely hard to narrow it down and you could fire them and strip them of their benefits and call it a day.
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noD's Avatar
United States
1584 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All governments and all bureaucracies are wasteful to some extent. Some more than others. Bottom line.
I'm not here to argue or prove a point. We all have opinions on everything. My advice and my opinion only, get on with life.
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Fat Freddy's Avatar
United States
1200 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fat Freddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I could even buy this argument for the initial response to it, but to continue it 40, 50, 60+ years later when who ever took them is certainly dead seems like a waste of money.

Just a personal view, but... I think you may be underestimating the lifespan of institutional enmity/wrath and the spiteful/vindictive/punitive spirit that frequently characterizes civil service
mentalities and operations. These are things that frequently outlive individuals, administrations and entire generations. When it comes to zeal, few can rival inquisitioners and witch hunters.
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Domain555's Avatar
United States
1804 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  4:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Domain555 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Who said?

I am from the government, and I an here to help you.

Did I say that right? Anyway who said it?
Bedrock of the Community
basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think you may be underestimating the lifespan of institutional enmity/wrath and the spiteful/vindictive/punitive spirit that frequently characterizes civil service
mentalities and operations. These are things that frequently outlive individuals, administrations and entire generations. When it comes to zeal, few can rival inquisitioners and witch hunters.


You just nailed it right on the head which is really what my point was. That were going to get you to get you mentality is what drives the cost of their existence up to insane levels. Theres often times nothing practical or no bigger interest at play other than egos. Thats fine if they want to do it on their own dime, but its tax payer money.

Once practically and/or justifiable interest is removed as a necessary precursor for action expenditure grows out of control over time. This always happens over time and is one reason why no government has ever been able to stand the test of time in human history.

Like you said though it seems that the ultimate conclusion always comes back to they were motivated by institutional wrath
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noD's Avatar
United States
1584 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2014  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yup
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