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 Replies: 33 / Views: 10,928 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1002 Posts |
My recent foray in Ancient Romans consists of completing a simple Flavian Dynasty Denarius set. I have the 2 sons Titus and Domitian. Finally found a decent example of the old man Vespasian ($55. shipped) ..probably paid too much. I don't even know enough about these to know that I don't know what I'm doing.. Wasn't much info on this one, and was trying to narrow down the approx. mintage date etc.  Found one that looks very close on Wildwinds: RIC 357 http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/...asian/t.html(RIC 357 Vespasian Denarius. Rome, 72-73 AD. IMP CAES VESP AVG P M COS IIII, laureate head right / CONCORDIA AVGVSTI, Concordia seated left, holding patera & cornucopiae. RSC 74.) -But it looks a little different.. Any help narrowing this one down would be appreciated. Thanks much! -Ron ... Edited to add: Here are the Vespasian's 2 sons that I have already: [Titus] 79-81 AD, Rome mint 80 AD  [Domitian] 81-96 AD, Rome mint 92-93 AD  Edited by Night-Hawk
04/01/2014 02:40 am
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
That's the coin. I suspect this one might be a fouree. Try soaking it in some diluted lemon juice it should help clean it up a bit. Don't leave it in too long and watch, rinse it off and dry it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1002 Posts |
Hmmm I assume a Fourrée is a plated forgery.. Should I send it back? There were a ton of bids on it. Was wondering if it was plated it would show breaks through with this amount of wear, or maybe just the strike is weak.. The sellers' pic I clipped the above image from had green background which you can see the edges of near the top. I don't have it in hand yet. Thanks -Ron  Edited by Night-Hawk
03/31/2014 10:18 pm
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
Fouree are ancient forgeries but still very collectable. I just suspect it to be one, it's up to you to send it back if your not happy with it. Lets see if anyone else thinks it a fouree.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
797 Posts |
I'm no where near an expert, but I would imagine with the wear, and chips from the edge shown, if it was a fouree, you would see the plating. THat strike on his shoulder would be deep enough to go completely through the plating they tended to use.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1002 Posts |
Ok thanks much for the info so far, hopefully all is well
with the Vespasian as it looks like a good match to the set.
-Ron
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I think that strike on the shoulder HAS gone through the plating. I suspect that the core of the coin is low silver (?20% silver?) billon, alloyed with copper. That would help to explain the lack of corrosion underneath.
Have a look at the pits on the edge with a 10x loupe; I would expect to see the same sort of metal underneath. The edges of the pits should also show that it was plated, or silver washed, where the surface metal has better withstood the slightly faster corrosion (albeit slow), of the core alloy.
The style and lack of distinctness of the lettering suggests that is a fouree.
Edited by sel_69l
04/01/2014 04:07 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
I did just roll out of bed and my coffee is still warm but I don't see a denarius of 'Tito'.
I see a Domitian with Minerva reverse PRINCEPS IVVENTI.
Domitian as Caesar and Domitian as Augustus. A nice "set" but not what you expected I think.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1002 Posts |
Quote:
I did just roll out of bed and my coffee is still warm but I don't see a denarius of 'Tito'.
I see a Domitian with Minerva reverse PRINCEPS IVVENTI.
Domitian as Caesar and Domitian as Augustus. A nice "set" but not what you expected I think. I think this was corrected in RIC II See Example 2 : http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s2674.html DOMITIAN, as Caesar. 80 AD. AR Denarius (3.30 gm). CAESAR DIVI F DOMITIANVS COS VII, laureate head right / PRINCEPS IVVENTVTIS, Minerva standing right, holding spear in right hand overhead, shield on left arm. RIC II 41 (corr.); BMCRE 86 (Titus); BN 72 (Titus); RSC 381a. Edited by Night-Hawk
04/01/2014 10:55 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
I agree the date of issue makes it a Titus but what I meant to emphasize was that the portrait and legend are Domitian.
Interestingly the link shows the same type with a very Titus like looking Domitian portrait.
A decent Titus won't break the bank (unless you want it too !)and you really should fill that in.
Actually you should look for 2 more for balance. Titus as Caesar and Titus as Augustus and cover all the bases !
I have a nice Germanicus and a real keeper of an Agrippa both issued by Caligula.
But when I think of my Caligula coins these aren't the two that immediately come to mind.
As I emphasized too I was drinking my 6AM coffee after a short 4 hour nights sleep .......
One of these days I am going to "defenestrate" my cat
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Leave a window open, cat can defenestrate himself :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1002 Posts |
Ok, Good Info FVRIVS..  Makes total sense now. Much to learn, always appreciate the input. sel_691 -Will check it out carefully with a loupe, all good points. Agree the lettering doesn't look right. Reminds me of the thin lettering on fake WLH's. Still interesting, will probably keep it, need a Fourrée in the collection anyway.. -Ron Edited by Night-Hawk
04/01/2014 2:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Well Ron, $55 (£33) is about right for a genuine example. I sold a Vespasian Denarius from my ebay sales on Monday for £19.99 Alas, yours appears to be a Cast Copy: Compare with an example listed in Forum Ancient Coins fakes gallery:  From the look of the seller's photo with the fake Grass backround it is " ancient.necropolis.london" who gives his address location as London, England, but luckily for us UK eBayers we are allowed by law to see his real address. Not London, but Lancaster, Lancashire. Brussels, Belgium is closer to London than Lancaster.  Over on Forum Ancient Coins, Fake Coins Thread one of this seller's other "Domitian Denarii" has been called up on authenticity. Click here. Edited by Masis
04/01/2014 6:12 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I have seen quite a few fourees, but I don't have one in my collection.
To my thinking, there is no reason why an example of a fouree should NOT be included. They have a legitimate part in any collection of Roman coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Quote:
I have seen quite a few fourees, but I don't have one in my collection.
To my thinking, there is no reason why an example of a fouree should NOT be included. They have a legitimate part in any collection of Roman coins.~sel-69I Uh, Fouree? You did read my post? That "coin" is an example of a known Fake. I know you collect Fakes, but I do not think member "Night-Hawk" intended to buy a Fake, not for $55. That seller also sells a lot of "Roman/Byzantine" style "Appliques" from Bulgaria. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
797 Posts |
It does appear that Masis has made a strong point, all the indicators point to it being a known fake unfortunately. Just match up the edges and lettering and its clear.
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Replies: 33 / Views: 10,928 |
Posted 03/31/2014 10:12 pm
