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Would Knowing Mintages Of Error Coins Affect Their Value?

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weerdsteev's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 04/09/2014  1:39 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
There are numerous types of "error coins", but for the purpose of this discussion let's just consider overdates â€" those coins where two digits appear in a spot in the date that should only contain one. Typically, there are no mintage figures available for overdates, they are simply an unquantified part of the overall mintage figure for whatever denomination/date/mint that they were intended to be.

The overdate that's most near and dear to MY heart is the 1918/7-D Buffalo nickel. There were 8,362,000 nickels struck at the Denver mint for the year 1918. An unknown sub-quantity of those bore an 8 over a 7 in the date, and THOSE are judged to be MORE RARE and MORE VALUABLE than their properly struck kin, the plain old 1918-D. In fact, they're judged to be more rare and valuable than almost all the dates and mints in the buffalo series.

What would happen to the value of the 18/7 if someone suddenly unearthed some long lost records from the Denver mint that conclusively and irrefutably proved that there were exactly 10,000 of them made that way? How about if it was at the other end of the scale and there were 1,500,000 of them made that way? What do you think either of those revelations would do to prices for that overdate â€"or any other overdate for some other denomination that you might be more familiar with?
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zxcccxz's Avatar
Canada
5417 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zxcccxz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I think we can rule out a mintage of 1.5m. There are way too little of them to constitute that sort of a mintage. Anyways, I think that knowing mintage figures would vastly affect the errors market. Not only in price but in stability. Currently, most collectors don't collect errors, either because they are hard to identify, prices are hard to pinpoint or because they are only worth anything to the right buyer. Having concise mintage values would bring much needed stability to the errors market.
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happyhop's Avatar
United States
53 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add happyhop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it would be interesting to know - but probably wouldn't affect their value that much. I get the sense these types of variations come in and out of fashion. I think a lot depends on whether there is a "slot" for the particular variation in the popular books! If there is - the value is clearly driven up!
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Domain555's Avatar
United States
1804 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Domain555 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
zxcccxz..............


Quote:
............... Currently, (1) most collectors don't collect errors, (2) either because they are hard to identify, (3) prices are hard to pinpoint or because they are (4) only worth anything to the right buyer. (5) Having concise mintage values would bring much needed stability to the errors market.


Yes...
Yes...
Yes...
Yes,...
and YES!
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  2:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To clear things up, this seems like a discussion of die varieties instead of errors. Errors are typically a one-off event and are unique unto themselves. Die varieties are a repeatable occurrence since it is transferred directly from a particular die and not the result of mechanical malfunction or poor quality control. Because of this repeatability, rough mintage figures can sometimes be estimated based upon known die life for a series and known surviving populations. The best known example is the 1955 DDO Lincoln Cent with an estimated mintage of 20-25,000.

Since the 1918/7-D Buffalo is an early date, it has another factor working against the surviving population- extreme date wear on low grade examples. Taken from Heritage-

Quote:
The exact mintage of 1918/7-D Buffalo nickels is unknown, but Bowers estimates an original production figure of about 100,000 pieces. Because the coins circulated for so long before the variety was noticed, the great majority of the surviving population is in lower circulated grades. The typical example seen today is in the VG-VF range. Many example doubtless exist in grades below VG, and more than 100 specimens have been graded, but the overdate is difficult to detect because of wear on the date. Coins grading AU are seldom encountered, and Mint State specimens are rare. The number of surviving specimens in Mint State grades is another mystery. Population data in the lower Uncirculated grades has been distorted by resubmissions. Walter Breen guessed possibly six specimens survive in Uncirculated grades, but that estimate is certainly too low. Lange estimates approximately two dozen example are extant in Mint State grades, a more reasonable figure. We would not be surprised if the real total was larger still, say around 35-40 pieces.


The 1955 DDO die was caught during production which led to its lower population. Assuming Bowers is reasonably accurate, then the run for the 1918/7-D actually lasted for most of the expected die life but it is rarer than the short run 1955 DDO due to attrition.
Edited by biokemist6
04/09/2014 5:20 pm
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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 04/09/2014  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the more of any minted would lessen the value. If they minted 1000 DDO's it would be worth more then if there were 1000000 of the same thing. Also supply and demand is a major factor.IMHO
John1
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OldSkoolMadSkilz's Avatar
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 Posted 04/09/2014  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldSkoolMadSkilz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it were a recent discovery perhaps the known mintage would affect price. However, something like the 1918/7-D has been collected for quite a while so the price is pretty stable. If someone were to discover a huge hoard of them, that might change things.


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 Posted 04/09/2014  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chasingtailbar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Overdates are varieties, not errors.
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 04/09/2014  2:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What would happen to the value of the 18/7 if someone suddenly unearthed some long lost records from the Denver mint that conclusively and irrefutably proved that there were exactly 10,000 of them made that way? How about if it was at the other end of the scale and there were 1,500,000 of them made that way?


For something like that it would probably have little to effect since by this point most of the surviving examples are likely known given the huge premium they carry. If the mintage was huge people could get a little gun shy that theres a bag of them waiting to be discovered somewhere, but until that happens regardless of what their mintage says their availability/graded population would tell more about how many survived to this point.

The older something is with valuable coins like that the more likely that most of the surviving population is already known barring a hoard being uncovered.

To me mintage is one of the more overrated aspects of value. Survival rates are what really matters. Take the 16 D Mercury dime. The mintage is miniscule for that series, but because of that a large percentage of it has been saved and its not hard to find if youre willing to pay for it.

Its kind of ironic how a high mintage can create a rarity since no one saves it while a low mintage creates a very high survival rate
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amida17's Avatar
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 Posted 04/09/2014  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
this seems like a discussion of die varieties instead of errors


This.

and....


Quote:
Survival rates are what really matters


This.

Another example would be 1883 Liberty nickel. Without Cents about 5.5 million minted. With Cents 16 million minted. MS without Cents value about $50, MS with Cents value about $200. It was a well known, at the time variety, and was hoarded making the "rare" variety more common....
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weerdsteev's Avatar
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 Posted 04/09/2014  3:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay...yep..."variety"...not "error". My bad. But I knew what I meant and most here probably did, too. Still, thanks for the clarification.
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bpoc1's Avatar
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 Posted 04/09/2014  4:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good question Weerdsteev. Even with the confusion "error/variety,"
Biokemist6 defined it best,

Quote:
To clear things up, this seems like a discussion of die varieties instead of errors. Errors are typically a one-off event and are unique unto themselves. Die varieties are a repeatable occurrence since it is transferred directly from a particular die and not a mechanical malfunction or poor quality control.

This should go into the CCF Glossary to help all members.
Error/Variety Distinction
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mintage is not important, availability is the key. If a coin is rare and seldom available and then it is discovered that they made 10 million of them it don't matter because it is STILL seldom available and hard to acquire.
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OldSkoolMadSkilz's Avatar
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2077 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldSkoolMadSkilz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Slightly off topic, but by the definition above, a die clash would be a variety, not an error, correct? I'm fine with that.


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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16808 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2014  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What would happen to the value of the 18/7 if someone suddenly unearthed some long lost records from the Denver mint that conclusively and irrefutably proved that there were exactly 10,000 of them made that way? How about if it was at the other end of the scale and there were 1,500,000 of them made that way? What do you think either of those revelations would do to prices for that overdate --or any other overdate for some other denomination that you might be more familiar with?

It wouldn't change values at all. Mintages are always at best only a theoretical basis on which to build the "supply" side of the supply-and-demand equation for a coin. Where mintages are known, they are often a source of frustration for newbies entering the coin market and think that low mintage = low supply = high value. But the market has had a hundred years to determine the relative rarity of the coin in question and set the price accordingly. Changing the number of coins that "should" be out there does not change the actual number of coins out there.

The only thing on the supply side of the equation that would cause a sudden change in the relative values of the variety vs. non-variety coin are a sudden actual increase (or decrease) in the supply - the number of "survivors". The discovery of a huge hoard of one type or the other would send the value for that type down; a large collection of one type or the other getting lost in a fire or otherwise destroyed would send prices for that type up.

After a hundred years, such events are I think rather improbable, so the "supply" is now pretty much stable. The only thing remaining that can cause a relative shift in values is a change in "demand": a whole bunch of collectors/investors either suddenly wanting one (because of a magazine article, perhaps) or a whole bunch of collectors/investors suddenly deciding they no longer need one (if for example Dansco, Whitman, etc all stop creating a "hole" for the variety in their albums).

Or, to put it in an archeological context: whenever there is a contradiction between the known physical evidence and the known written records, the physical evidence wins. Every time.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Domain555's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2014  07:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Domain555 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Conder............


Quote:
Mintage is not important, availability is the key. If a coin is rare and seldom available and then it is discovered that they made 10 million of them it don't matter because it is STILL seldom available and hard to acquire.



This carries over to error coins.

Example: A catastrophic die failure.
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