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 Replies: 23 / Views: 3,256 |
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
I mostly collect classic American coins, but having worked at a Middle Eastern dig site a lifetime ago, I also gained a great appreciation for history by handling and helping catalog actual pieces of it. Obviously those artifacts had to stay behind, but today at my LCS I saw a slabbed ancient coin described as:
Phillip III Arrhidaeus
AR Drachma
what little information I found seems to indicate this is a "Price P15 var" (I assume this is a catalog number?)
Coin was graded EF-40 and was slabbed by ICG (not a top-tier grader, I know, but I think they are fairly reputable).
I'd love to have something like this in my collection, but not knowing much about ancient coins, I figured I'd better avail myself of the fine folks here at CCF and educate myself a bit by asking a few questions:
1) I understand that ancient coins are almost always cleaned, more for preservation than as an attempt to "pretty them up". Is this a correct understanding? This drachma has luster but nothing that looks like harsh brush marks on its surfaces.
2) What kinds of traits might a counterfeit coin of this type exhibit?
3) Does the Sheldon grading scale even translate well to ancient coins (i.e. is EF-40 a reasonable grade to have)
4) Is $185 a reasonable price? This is for sale at a trusted shop and all his prices on American coins are very fair, but I just don't know about this one.
Any other thoughts or warnings are appreciated and please correct any misunderstandings I have.
Thanks in advance,
-Chris
Edited by chetzler
04/12/2014 12:26 am
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Any chance of a link to a pic of the coin?
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Valued Member
 United States
206 Posts |
Unfortunately, no, I didn't think to snap a picture when I was in the shop. However it does match the coin pictured here: http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/gree..._P015var.jpgI'm not sure how helpful that is though, other than to verify that that is an example of the coin I'm looking at. |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
Unfortunately without the pics we can't verify anything at all. If you search the forum for "slabbed" you will see that the general opinion is that we don't like them. You are paying something "on top" of the coin value for the identification and slabbing. To be honest, I would look for something that is unslabbed. If you have a few $$$s to spare then go to one of the reputable dealers on somewhere like vcoins. If you are on a tight budget and want to pick up something from ebay, find your coin and post a link in a new thread. The guys and gals will put you right (hopefully) if it is a fake. Edit: See this link, it will give you a shorthand version of our opinions of Authentication Companies and slabbed coins! https://goccf.com/t/172642Edited by pishpash
04/12/2014 4:09 pm
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
Yes, I typically prefer non-slabbed coins myself and were I to purchase this one, I would surely set it free. I'm wary of ebay because of the horror stories I've heard and because of the numerous scam listings I've seen highlighted here. I trust my dealer and I'm sure he would take it back if there were any doubts about its authenticity. At this point I'm just trying to get a feel for what is a fair price. There is a dearth of information on the Internet, however, I did find this one ebay listing for the same type coin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140586783673The coin in this listing appears pitted and just looks off to my (albeit untrained when it comes to ancients) eye. The one I'm looking at is not pitted, has a silvery luster and does not appear to have any heavy wear or scratches. Thanks for the replies Edited by chetzler
04/12/2014 6:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
Since you trust this dealer and seem star struck by this coin I think you would not be foolish to acquire it. Alexander drachms went for $40 apiece back in the last century and go for more today. Philip III has always been a bit scarce and higher priced than his 'bro' Alexander.
As stated most collectors don't like the slab thing. But being done I probably would leave it alone for now. You may change your mind later and if the dealer is 'good' he may give you credit later for another purchase. If broken out he may be reluctant.
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
I'm surprised at that pricing! I would have expected it to be the other way around: I'd have thought a well-known ruler like Alexander would demand a premium even if there were more of those coins to go around, while a lesser-known (at least to mon-historians), such as Phillip would be in lower demand. Does $150 seem like a fair offer for the coin I'm looking at? (again, I know that's a bold question without a picture, but let's assume it is indeed as described above). Is there any sort of price guide out there for Ancient Greek coins?
Thanks,
-Chris
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
4208 Posts |
On the subject of the sheldon grading scale, no. No it does not translate to ancients. That number might as well be arbitrary.
Fake? Look out for the surface, the colour and design. Look up authentic pieces and see how they look. Be cautious of casting bubbles and ensure its good silver - a lot of fakes are made from other metals which tend to be duller and greyer.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
I myself paid $75 for a Philip Arrhidaeus back in 1979. If I were to attempt a grading I think it would get a low end EF. Prices can be unpredictable but the supply is always a driving factor. I have not seen many of Philip III while Alexander III seems more plentiful than ever. Someone somewhere will always have a better deal but finding it is the problem. $150 from a legitimate dealer does not sound bad and while the slabbing and grading by ICG is not an iron clad guarantee it does carry some weight. Cash always talks ..... If you offer the man $150 in greenbacks he is likely to groan slightly and then accept the offer.
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
Thanks for the great info, everyone, especially yours, FVRIVS RVFVS. If you happen to have a picture of your Philip III, I'd love to see it so that I'd have a basis for comparison. I assume that with ancient coins, dies and strikes weren't nearly as consistent as with modern coinage. Thus two coins of the same type (e.g. two Philip III drachm) might exhibit a fair amount of variation. Is this correct?
Thanks again!
-Chris
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
Not the prettiest Philip III but it is the only one I have ever purchased ! Some light surface cracks detract slightly from the grade. As stated previously I paid $75 in 1979 but this was from a dealer who was liquidating his inventory. I offered $75 and he 'groaned' before accepting my offer. It can be difficult to gauge prices on time elapsed. Many a nice AE As of Emperor Claudius sold for $75-100 back then. They sell for only slightly more today on ebay ! Philip III Arrhidaeus AR Drachm Obv. Head of Herakles right Rv. Zeus enthroned left, 'S' before, 'A' with crescent above below throne Muller 79 3.98 grams 17-8mm   |
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
Hey, it looks better than any of us will look after two millennia!
Thanks for taking the time to post those pics, RVFVS. Yours, like many similar ancients I've seen online, seems to exhibit a more muted luster than what I remember seeing on the one I'm considering. Maybe it's just the way they are photographed, so I'm not sure whether or not this is cause for concern. I understand pretty much every ancient coin has probably been cleaned at some point, so is it reasonable to expect some degree of shine?
Thanks again,
-Chris
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
Honestly I have been shying away from ancient silver since the late 80's. I reached the point where I grew weary of much the same sentiment you are expressing. Many beautiful ancient silver coins (esp gold) have a brightness and lustre that makes one wonder if it really is what it purports to be ! This is of course explainable in that most silver and gold did not get carried about but being worth a great deal in ancient times would have been socked away or buried safely where the tax man would never find it. If the owner met a sudden end or fled in haste before the barbarian hordes outside the gates the treasure might have sat undisturbed for 2,000 years. Modern chemical cleaning techniques may return the coins to a 'mint like' state. Either way I long ago decided I preferred the patinated "venerable" look of ancient bronze. Besides bronze was the coin of everyday use and finding the gems amongst the junk was always a thrill.
I would not be surprised if your coin were of the 'bright' variety. This is apparently favored by many high end collectors. Being slabbed it was no doubt intended to be marketed to someone with a fat wallet. I regularly see $100 coins slabbed and priced at $500. Being of modest means I have but a few of the more dingy unslabbed type.
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
Well, I pulled the trigger. I had a heckuva time getting even these halfway decent images. The slab is really causing me problems; usually I can take a decent picture of an exposed coin. I think eventually it'll have to come out. Anyway, comments are welcome, good news or bad. Thanks, -Chris   |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts |
At first glance it looks a very nice coin, but difficult to tell really in the slab. Does it have a weight marked on it? I think a match for your coin is here http://wildwinds.com/coins/greece/m...p_III/t.htmlSee Price P46, P46.1 and P46.2. Macedon, Kings of. Philip III. 323-317 BC. AR Drachm (4.19 gm). Head of Herakles wearing lion's skin headdress / Zeus enthroned left, holding eagle and sceptre; monogram in left field. Price P46; Müller 135. VF. 716078 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3446 Posts |
A very nice coin and certainly an interesting choice for your first ancient. I think you did rather well from the ones I see offered for sale. Photographing slabbed coins is definitely a pain in the lower extremities. I use my digital SLR with a polarizing filter to cut down on glare but it still shows.
Nevertheless I would wait to free the coin. Being new to ancients you might carry it to a large show sometime and see something that 'floats your boat' and use it in trade. A dealer may be more agreeable to an offer with the coin as is. Either way now that you have taken the plunge you will probably want to keep an eye out for other coins to keep it from getting lonely. Philip II can be quite pricey in silver but Alexander III is plentiful both in lifetime issues and drachms minted after his death but still carrying his name. And of course you have the army of 'generallissimo's' who divided up Alexanders empire and 'ruled the world' for most of the next 3 centuries.
This could keep you very busy for quite some time !
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Replies: 23 / Views: 3,256 |
Posted 04/12/2014 1:47 pm
