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 Replies: 33 / Views: 4,887 |
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Valued Member
Canada
372 Posts |
I had an informative conversation with an older gentleman who bought and sold
coins many years ago, probably in to 70's. A few days ago he answered my ad in the grocery store that said I was looking for pennies. He called late in the evening and I missed his call, but he did not leave a message.
I operate a business in town and get calls at all hours, but I only return calls during business hours. I called the number back and asked if there was anything I can help him with. He asked how I got his number, and I said it was displayed twice on my phone so I assumed he wanted to speak to me. We talked about coins for an hour or so. He was surprised that his number was displayed since he uses the *67 feature to block numbers. I asked why the secrecy and he explained to me the danger of coin collecting.
He was buying silver dollars for $1.50 to $2 a piece. As the price of silver rose he began to sell and he was getting $18 to $20 a piece at a coin dealer. He was making a pile of money from selling these coins which triggered some interest with the bank, since his account was growing quickly. The Canada Revenue Agency showed up at his door, and although I do not know exact numbers, the gist of the conversation was "You sold $1000 of coins for $20000 , you owe us $7000. He chose to pay since you can't mess with the tax department and win.
The tax department is not the only crooks that coin collectors have to contend with. He knows of people whose homes were invaded by criminals looking to steal precious coins and cash. He does not openly talk about what he has when in public places like a coffee shop, in case someone is listening in. He does not list names and numbers of the people he deals coins with, to protect their safety. I never thought about this, but people break into houses for less, so if there is a chance of a big payout it can make you a target.
Here on the forum most people are anonymous until you get to know someone well enough to make a deal. Other than saying to people "I like to collect coins" do you feel comfortable divulging information about your treasures?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1531 Posts |
Yeesh. Though he still made a $13,000 profit, the tax department really roughed him up.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
OH that is in Canada. Could never happen here in the USA. Why our IRS and other government agencies work so well with our people. Why here if that happened, the IRS would contact him and say nice going, some great deals. Your our man.  And if anyone here publicized their address and mentioned they had millions in coins at home, criminals would not bother them since this is a hobby. Our crininals never bother people's hobbiese.  In reality it is not even safe to mention you have anything of value even to relatives. Example a neighbor had a collection of Gold coins. His own grandson robbed him of it to pay for drugs. |
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Valued Member
United States
217 Posts |
It is Canada though, pretty sure they have higher tax rates so that might be right on the money for that kind of profit.
I don't know that hiding from the IRS, whatever you might consider them, is a smart plan. That being said, I definitely think that it is smart, unless you trust the person, to give out more info then you need to. But it is all about the level of security you want. I know some people won't get coin magazines at their house to avoid people knowing about their hobby. Or even not buying products from the mint so that they don't have packages labeled as coins coming to their house. Still, if you think about it, you probably expose yourself a lot in the hobby. This guy was going into coin shops to sell, and an enterprising criminal could have noted this and followed him home.
So if you never buy or sell coins, get them shipped to you, or talk about them to your friends or neighbors or mention them online you will be secure, but it would also be pretty boring!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1295 Posts |
I don't have very many expensive coins in my collection, but I still would never divulge any information about them to people. When I start to get some more high-end stuff, I'm going to get a safe deposit box at the bank. Its safer that way.
I've noticed at coin shows that rare coin dealers may not put a price on their coins for sale, as they know it could attract dishonest people. If someone is genuinely interested in buying a $20,000 coin, they are not usually the type to steal.
My advice is to be careful about telling anyone about your collection. Loose lips sink ships, or coins!
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Valued Member
 Canada
372 Posts |
The funny thing is, This guy does not know me at all, but now I KNOW his name, what he has, where he hides his stash and where he lives, just from listening to him share his memories to me. Quote:
In reality it is not even safe to mention you have anything of value even to relatives That is a sad reality I have witnessed around here as well.  |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
So paying Income Tax on earnings is considered a "danger?"
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1804 Posts |
Just Carl............... Quote:
His own grandson robbed him of it to pay for drugs Drugs ....... Sad to the max. Too bad you can't choose your own grand-monsters ====>  <==== All AG & AU needs to be in a BANK VAULT |
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Valued Member
Canada
372 Posts |
No, the danger is how quickly people find out what you have and how to track you down. I can accept that the gentleman may have been of the opinion that selling currency was not subject to taxes since some people don't know the rules about capital gains. The bank questioned where all the money was coming from, and considered it was through illegal activities. That is when the feds showed up, assuming the worst.
It was the public knowledge of your collection that could be considered the danger if the wrong crowd gets wind if it.
Even if a person's collection is small, a crook hearing that you have $100 or $200 in coins at home could spark interest. People steal tvs to flip them for a quick buck to get their drugs, booze etc. thats all I was getting at. And it seems nobody just robs you anymore, they tend to be violent about it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
SsuperDdave, what I think he means is, you're in "danger" from the tax collectors if you don't declare your earnings on coin sales, and you're in "danger" from the police if you break into a house to take some nice coins to add to your collection.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
I buy and sell real estate, it is my job. When I make a profit, I pay taxes on that profit. I don't consider that a "danger" of my job. People think that because it is a hobby, it shouldn't be the same as people that do it for a job. Making money is making money, no matter how you do it. And what you make is subject to taxes.
It is always funny to me how people will obsessively conceal their hobby and the fact that they have a couple thousand dollars worth of coins in their house. Yet the day after Christmas, you can drive down the road in any neighborhood and see thousands and thousands of dollars worth of empty flat screen tv boxes, game system boxes and laptop boxes set out by the curb for sanitation pickup. People advertise that they have $10,000 in electronics in the house, but closely guard the fact that they are stacking silver rounds.
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Valued Member
Canada
372 Posts |
I didn't think I made it that complicated to understand. I never meant to insinuate that a person was in danger of being taxed, but rather that once people find out you are making money word spreads. Paying taxes is a fact of life, and I get annoyed at the amount of people that wish me to conduct my business "cash under the table". Everybody is obligated to pay taxes, and it seems the ones who don't are the first to complain about the services offered by the government. By purposely avoiding taxes, the CRA puts you on the watch list you are in for an audit. The part of the story regarding taxes was to illustrate how he started accumulating money and the bank assumed he was doing something illegal, when in fact it was none of their concern. Sheesh  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
The part of the story regarding taxes was to illustrate how he started accumulating money and the bank assumed he was doing something illegal, when in fact it was none of their concern.
Quite frankly, it is very much their concern. We live in a world where terrorists and drug lords will go to any length to launder money, and repeated, unsubstantiated cash deposits are - and should be - a red flag to any financial institution. And this issue has nothing whatsoever to do with "public knowledge of holdings," which is a very real danger to any collector or dealer. That's such a patently obvious disconnect that I couldn't help but assume - especially as you worded the story - the seller's intent was to abdicate his legal responsibility to pay taxes on the income, and it was a completely separate issue from revealing one's activities in public. If that was not the case, I offer my apology. |
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Valued Member
Canada
372 Posts |
I'm not sure what you meant by Quote:
especially as you worded the story I don't know if he was trying to avoid paying taxes, and I don't see how I indicated that he was. Because I do not know any more details than those which were shared, I can't presume anything, and I did not mean to present it that way. I see your point about money laundering and how the banks can have a responsibility to report suspicious behavior. The bank may have asked where it came from but I do not know that for a fact. Details get forgotten in stories that happened 30 years ago. I never meant this to be a tax debate, that would be another forum topic since I bet when people make trades they do not submit their sales tax either. Originally I just meant to pose the question- Do you feel comfortable divulging information about your treasures? and Rollsearcher37 had the best answer Quote:
My advice is to be careful about telling anyone about your collection. Loose lips sink ships, or coins! |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1751 Posts |
I don't talk to friends or family about my coin hobby. The most anyone knows is I collect special circulation issues. It's basically all anyone knows. It's sad I can only share on forums.
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Valued Member
United States
337 Posts |
And, in addition to having a bank box, I also use a P. O. Box for all ebay transactions. Crooks sell on ebay, and if you happen to buy from one living near you that shipping address can be too much information. I hate the idea of using a bank box, but it is important. The alternative would be to pay for coin insurance through the ANA. And I have a small collection. |
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Replies: 33 / Views: 4,887 |
Posted 04/17/2014 10:45 am
