Need Your Help Please ! Egypt Proof Coin ... Or Not?

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 3,742
Moheb1979 New Member Australia 42 Posts	Posted 06/05/2014 06:37 am Hi all, first post here so be gentle! I've been collecting Egyptian coins for the past 20 years, while I'd never call myself a professional I wouldn't consider myself a novice either, yet I have a massive dilemma .. While I own every catalogue issued on Egyptian coins, a few weeks ago one of my regular dealers called me with news about this exciting discovery; according to him; he met this old guy who used to work in the Egyptian minthouse; and he had a near complete set of all Egyptian silver coins minted between 1954 - 2011 in PROOF condition (which is unheard of, these coins were never minted as proof, just standard silver sets)... the story goes that a hand full of each issue was minted secretly and given as presents to top officials with an option for mint officials (like himself) to purchase if they wish, and he has for all these years.... Now, if this story is true these are extremely rare = valuable, a few things to keep in mind though: With: - There is a famous precedent in Egyptian history, between 1926-1952 the King of Egypt instructed the stamp print house to issue 1 sheet of each stamp produced imperforated for his personal collection, nobody knew anything about these until the auction after the revolution when these were sold, first nobody wanted them and now they sell for several hundred / thousand dollars each. - I showed some of these to a few dealers here in Australia and while they have no clue about the coins they confirmed that it certainly looked proof enough to them, same thing with jewellers who said there's no way to make the backgrounds of coins mirror like while the actual design appear frosty - They're not THAT expensive, a normal coin would sell for $30 and this "proof" is offered for $40, hardly worth the effort of a forger. Against: - Well, they could be forgeries, I don't know maybe there's some kind of chemical that can make normal silver (notice they're only silver coins) react and become shiny? - They are not mentioned in any catalogue and no other dealer has heard of them before - I sent 4 coins to NGC for slabbing, they came back as "Altered surface", they refused to provide any further information ... later on dealers in Sydney told me that NGC are great with US coins but frankly speaking with foreign coins (esp. not in catalogues) they won't have a clue. I'm thinking of sending to PCGS but again concerned if they have the same mentality as NGC, part of me certainly doesn't want to be a victim of a scam, on the other hand I keep remembering those stamps that were rejected by all in 1954 due to lack of knowledge and people are clamoring for them, thoughts? Anyone? Edited by Moheb1979 06/05/2014 06:45 am Report this Post to the Staff

JimmyJames Valued Member United States 211 Posts	Posted 06/05/2014 3:44 pm 1. There isn't a chemical you can add to these coins to make the fields look mirror proof like they do in the pictures. I think you can feel confident that it isn't from some kind of chemical manipulation. I think your visit with local dealers and their feedback confirms that you probably aren't looking at chemical trickery. 2. "They are not mentioned in any catalogue and no other dealer has heard of them before" The mintages are small enough where I wouldn't necessarily get too worried about them not being in the catalog. I personally own an authentic proof world coin that is not in a catalog. This in itself isn't a major issue. 3. I sent 4 coins to NGC for slabbing, they came back as "Altered surface" - This one makes me curious. Can they see that the surfaces are altered in a way that we can't see in your photo? Or were they responding to the fact that they had mirror finishes? Report this Post to the Staff
Moheb1979 New Member Australia 42 Posts	Posted 06/05/2014 5:50 pm Thanks so much Jimmy! - I'm really curious about point 3 as well, here's a screenshot of the grade on NGC's site When I queried it I got this semi-standard reply: "Thank you for your email. Our graders do not keep graders notes so I cannot help you with specifics. Please feel free to email or call us should you have any further questions. Thank you," Report this Post to the Staff
JimmyJames Valued Member United States 211 Posts	Posted 06/05/2014 8:48 pm The problem category suggests that they don't think you are looking at counterfeits. If that was a concern it would be labeled as having questionable authenticity. If you post detailed, in-focus photos of the coins in question, someone could try to give you a more professional assessment of how they would be altered. Report this Post to the Staff
agandau Valued Member Australia 193 Posts	Posted 06/06/2014 06:31 am From the NGC website; Quote: Altered Surface is a general term used to describe a coin whose surfaces are clearly not natural but whose exact treatment is uncertain. Among the deceptive processes that fall into this category is the application of pastes to either hide contact marks or to simulate Cameo frosting or Prooflike brilliance. It is hard to be certain on something uncataloged. The valuers are being rightly cautious. However, if you say they are being offered a little above ordinary prices, then maybe take a gamble, if Egyptian coins is your interest. Even if they turn out to be fakes of some kind, such examples can also have a place in a collection. Report this Post to the Staff
Moheb1979 New Member Australia 42 Posts	Posted 06/09/2014 9:50 pm Hi Jimmy, posted here a pic of how they were returned to me, the scanner hardly shows that they look like proofs, but as per my original photo uploads I'm sure you can see what I mean ... Thanks Agandau but they are offered as an entire set which is nearly 400 coins, at 25%-35% above the price of the "standard" silver coins the entire collection's price goes up to nearly $20,000 .. I just don't want to end up with tampered with coins that - best case scenario will sell at silver melt price - on the other hand if these were officially made and secretly so they would be worth multiples of $20k very quickly .. In your opinion are PCGS more flexible / open minded to items not in any catalogue / offer more insights or would I just be wasting my money and get them back in body bags? I've never submitted to them before. Report this Post to the Staff
JimmyJames Valued Member United States 211 Posts	Posted 06/10/2014 10:31 am If you check out the PCGS population report (http://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail.aspx...0&p=PR&t=3), they have certified around 200 modern egyptian proofs. A portion of the coins had Trueview photos taken, and you can look at them and compare them to the coins you are looking at. I can't try to compare with the photos you presented given the photo size and the fact the one particular ones you posted do not appear to have been graded before(and I have little knowledge of egyptian coins). Looking at the NGC population report, they have graded a decent amount of proofs before as well. They don't provide totals, but it looks like they've done considerably more than PCGS has. But they don't have any good photos for comparison. So I think you can rule out the idea that the grading companies just have no idea what they were looking at assuming you categorized them as proof on your submission forms. You can also probaby rule out the idea that you are looking at one of a kind items since many examples have hit both of the grading companies. Granted there are probably coin types in your lot that haven't been graded yet by either company. Why didn't the coins get encapsulated at all? Did you request that if they didn't grade clean? Altered surfaces coins should still be encapsulated, and that would validate authenticity. Edited by JimmyJames 06/10/2014 10:55 am Report this Post to the Staff
Moheb1979 New Member Australia 42 Posts	Posted 06/10/2014 7:18 pm Hi Jimmy, I sincerely do appreciate all your time and effort in trying to help me out, you're a star! Just wanted to clarify something though (to complicate things further but hey, you get to learn more about Egyptian coins!)... In the last 50 years or so Egypt has actually used to mints to produce commemorative silver coins, the main "official" one is the Abbasiya mint in Cairo, this one (again officially) only produced two proof sets in the 1960's and perhaps 20 or so other 1 pound coins, all others (nearly 400 coins) were produced as normal silver coins. On the other hand, between 1993-1999 there was an arrangement with the Franklin mint in the US to produce a series of 63 silver proof (and a handful of gold proof) coins titled the "Treasures of Egypt", now these are far superior workmanship, higher grade of silver too, as expected by the Franklin mint, those are the ones you've uncovered on the PCGS website .. If you check the coins above from the NGC website (which I believe derives its entire content from the World Coin Catalogue) you'll notice they only list a standard silver and no proof: http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/...-duid-103527 http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/...-duid-103522 http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/...-duid-103519 Report this Post to the Staff
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