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 Replies: 7 / Views: 1,996 |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
This is an old copper token, Civil War era, but I'm posting it here because what happened to it could happen to any copper coin, and supposedly other metals as well. Here it is, a Yankee Robinson token...  The "before" image is from a 2013 auction. The token is now slabbed. If the third party grader knew the token or coin was retoned/recolored, would they call it out on the slab? It has a "details" grade due to damage on the obverse. I'm showing the reverse because the dark spots help to identify it as the same token. I knew, I guess, that copper coins have been quite successfully recolored, and kind of wondered if the best TPG firms could spot them. -Duncan |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7375 Posts |
The fact that it now has a "details" grade speaks for itself. I'm not sure if a TPG would specifically call out "retoned/recolored," or if they can tell. I think I've seen something like "questionable color." Sometimes there is more than one issue listed on a detail slab, and other times I think the "details" covers more than one issue, even if it's not mentioned on the slab. I submitted a really messed up 1909 S vdb cent to ANACS. I came back with a "corroded" details grade, and I felt that was generous, and was a kind of broad brush for more than one problem. Maybe someone better versed on the subject will reply. |
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Valued Member
 United States
110 Posts |
To be precise, the "details" grade is "XF details, obverse scratched". First, I wouldn't describe the details as XF, the token is quite worn. Here's the obverse in an auction scan from 2013...  And here's a high grade one from my own collection...  I would expect to see a lot more details on an XF token, and calling out a scratch suggests to me that the problem with this patient is minor. So the two things that trouble me are that these old coppers are being, apparently, quite skillfully recolored and secondly, that they might come back slabbed. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7375 Posts |
Yeah, definitely not XF. Usually a details coin will come back with a lower grade because of the details, not higher. I agree, looks like NGC? could have done a better job on this one.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19943 Posts |
That's actually a "natural" retoning, looks like the window sill treatment....they actually did a good job of letting it age. I don't believe anything was used to accelerate the process.
Looking at the depth of the devices on your coin, I'd say NGC missed the mark. It looks more like Fine to me using your coin as a guide.
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
I'm not knocking NGC, but yes it is their slab. They do seem to be generous on tokens of this vintage, and production quality can certainly be low, even more so on the larger Hard Times tokens that preceded the Civil War tokens. But wear is wear, different from a weak strike.
EDIT: Maybe they were dazzled by the color (smiley).
But this token sold early in 2013 for $19.16 including shipping, and now is offered at $100.00. And the slab does offer a certain amount of assurance to a potential buyer.
Oddly, I just looked up the auction again to verify the asking price, and a strange thing happened. I probably should've contacted the seller I suppose, but the issue I think has a lot wider implications than just this one token. But anyway maybe he (or she) visits this site, or someone may have pointed out the discussion. The seller ended the auction and relisted it, and in switching from the original listing to the new one I briefly saw on the screen, "RECOLORED BUT SLABBED" - which might've been temporarily added to the listing, but now I don't see that. Strange.
-Duncan
Edited by Duncan_Doenitz
10/23/2014 9:18 pm
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Valued Member
New Zealand
72 Posts |
they can fake patina now? that's scary, I thought it took decades to age a coin like that?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19943 Posts |
Quote:
they can fake patina now? that's scary, I thought it took decades to age a coin like that? IMO, the patina is not "fake". A year or two in a window sill will recover most copper to how it looks in the slab. I once had a really nice coin I sent to NGC, it came back "cleaned". I put it in a window sill for a year, it toned nicely, and resubmitted...it came back MS-63. |
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Replies: 7 / Views: 1,996 |
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Posted 10/23/2014 4:35 pm
