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skip79's Avatar
Canada
403 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skip79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
V.I.C.K: the RCM allocates certain quantities of their published mintages of NCLT to their distributor network (Bromberg being their highest volume distributor). Those numbers are reflected in the quantities sold, however quantities sold do not reflect direct consumer purchases from the RCM. I'd trust the mintages published by the Mint, but the volume they directly sell to the consumer market is misleading due to the private distributor allocated purchases.
Valued Member
skip79's Avatar
Canada
403 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skip79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree w/ doubleeagle59
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47P7's Avatar
Canada
1505 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Doesn't the old saying say Lawyers and politicians are liars

well put, BUT they do not see it as such. They never tell lies!
They are all good dancers: they take a step fwd, a step backward, a step to the side, and then they circumvent the actual issue.
or
They never lie!! they only tell you what you want to hear.
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SilverDon's Avatar
Canada
2360 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@skip, I know what your saying, but the impulse buyers are a good portion of the gift market, and this is healthy. No disrespect, they are a regular source of revenue for Cdn Coins and Bromberg. But as I say it is another storefront, one that is convenient for some who maybe shut in, right in your living room, for maybe those not using the net. It is the only time I see coins on TV other than a hoard that gets discovered, so it can't be too bad. I think Bromberg is good for the hobby for sure, although they lay it on a bit thick.

As for how they sell out 200,000 pieces, good marketing. E-mails, newspapers, magazines, e-mails, TV ads, e-mails, relentless, advertising. Got one today. Must be some amount of disposable money out there. I think the Mint portal is a pretty user friendly site which makes for easy direct purchasing, and the use of testimonials makes for like minded purchase decisions. Sneaky but smart. I need to get that for my Grandkids as well or I like that theme as well.
Edited by SilverDon
11/16/2014 11:41 am
Forum Kid
Vancouver IslandCoinKid's Avatar
Canada
1074 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Vancouver IslandCoinKid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ding ding ding, yes I think you guys are right, and it all comes together now.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheCoinHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is my 2 cents...Cause I always have them!...There is no doubt that the RCM is a self serving organization that's out there to make money. It doesn't particularly care about future values of it's product and it releases way too many coins. Worse yet, if it has a winning series, it will milk it for all it's worth by frequently increasing mintage numbers for the next coin. Saying that, the mint also extensively promotes the hobby and keeps coins in the eyes of not only collectors but gift buyers. On the retail side, for some reason there is always a perception that when a coin is purchased it MUST be profitable in the future. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even if a coin devalues by 50%, you're still likely further ahead than if you bought someone some useless Xmas gift for $50 only to see it at a garage sale for two bucks two years later. What is the problem buying someone an RCM coin as a gift purely for their enjoyment without attaching some sort of investment stigma? I tell people at the store all the time, if you're buying it as a gift, it's your choice of product. If you're buying investment, buy bullion or some significant numismatic. Bromberg falls into a similar category. The only issue I have there is that the sales prices of some products are at times grossly over priced and the future value potential is sometimes "stretched". Reality is that we live in a free market economy and if he can obtain those values for his product without being fraudulent, it's his right. On trend values, as always it's all over the map. I just sold an ICCS MS65 1967 Dollar (Trends $450) for $144. Others also sold in that neighborhood. I've also sold some more desirable coins in the 90% neighborhood and I've seen some very difficult to find coinage sell well over trends. I don't believe that in the current market a blanket % of trends statement applies.
Forum Kid
Vancouver IslandCoinKid's Avatar
Canada
1074 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Vancouver IslandCoinKid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you hit the the nail right on the head. Thanks for sharing, I really get intrigued with questions and topics like this.
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kuh_85's Avatar
Canada
2366 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree w/ @doubleeagle59. Coin values and the percentage of trends/book value received on the open market took a nasty plunge with the financial crisis. Circulation coins seem to have stabilized over the past year or so but the secondary market for NCLT is still suffering from the rapid ramp up of RCM releases. Although obviously the primary market ( RCM selling) is doing quite well instead. Dealers are somewhat getting caught in the middle; if they can sell quickly while the RCM releases they're okay but as soon as the coins start to show up on the secondary market they have to sell at steep discounts. As an aside, Trends seems to be significantly trailing the market on adjusting to the drop while Charlton and Coins & Canada have been doing a better job of keeping up. But that's just my opinion :-)
Valued Member
skip79's Avatar
Canada
403 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skip79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree that everyone is free to exploit & capitalize any market he/she chooses, so long as the products being considered are legitimate; which both Bromberg and the Mint obviously satisfy that criteria. Bromberg's success is largely attributed to his superior relationship with the RCM coupled with his TSC sell-thru programs of over 20 years; where he is fetching premium $ from an otherwise impulsive consumer audience with little-to-no longevity as "collectors". Is there anything wrong with that? No. As you said, it's a free market (well, not-so-free in the eyes of the RCM, but that's a different topic entirely). He's running a business, and the primary objective of any business is to be profitable. Bromberg's legal background has served him well as a masterful strategist as he has successfully pushed the perceived boundaries of the coin marketplace to his advantage. But is there any real collector value on his TSC Coin Shows for true collectors who are mindful of market/trend values (not that CCN Trends are an accurate reflection of the marketplace either...See: https://goccf.com/t/189911)?

I've watched countless TSC Coin Shows and not once have I been interested in his products enough to justify paying the Trend(+++) premium prices he commands. Why? Because I'm a value conscious collector. Now, if he sold a 1921 50c piece on TV, that may be different. Otherwise, everything he sells can either be easily purchased elsewhere at much better prices, or he has assembled a less desirable proprietary set that he commands a hefty premium for simply because he made it look pretty. Again, is there anything wrong with that? No. Would I as a knowledgeable collector purchase his high priced TV offerings? No, and I'm doubtful most true collectors would. Would compulsive shoppers, hoarders, gift buyers, etc., who are likely detached (or at least arms-length) from the hobby be inclined to buy? Absolutely. Why? Because they are influenced by the hype & marketing tactics used by Bromberg & TSC...especially with the interest-free credit program they offer. But actual collectors are more likely to know better and realize they can get much better deals if they actually look for them; especially in this buyer's market. Again, nothing wrong with TSC shoppers. We're all big boys and girls (among other genders, apparently), and we all have our money that we rightfully spend as we see fit. I'm simply making the observation to the uniqueness and successful formula that Bromberg has created, which does have an overall market impact.

That being said, I'm more concerned of the monopoly-type empire he's developing simply due to his deeply-rooted relationship with the RCM. Let's not forget, he convinces the RCM periodically to make specific coin designs that are released into the market, AND he was the principal consultant that influenced the RCM's release strategy (along with first review and presumably, allocation rights) of the BoC gold hoard...and it's that level of influence on the market (at the top point of decision making, design and manufacture) that I find to be very concerning.
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doubleeagle59's Avatar
Canada
2495 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bromberg, on the HSC, on occassion has sold a one or two-of-a-kind bank note with certification.

The price has been in the thousands.

I know nothing of paper money but I wonder if someone does know of the example I speak of, would you have an idea if the price he asked for it, is a reasonable one or would it be full retail?
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kuh_85's Avatar
Canada
2366 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are certainly paper notes that trade in the thousands. Without knowing the year, denomination, signature etc I couldn't say whether it was reasonable in that case of not. For example a 1935 $1000 bill in top GUnc condition lists at $28k http://www.coinsandcanada.com/bankn...&id_denom=14
Valued Member
4mile123's Avatar
Canada
249 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4mile123 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing to keep in mind, in the interest of transparency. I believe the notes certified in CCC holders are their own in-house grading, not a 3rd party grader.
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doubleeagle59's Avatar
Canada
2495 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2014  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
4m123....good point.

I wondered if their cert was their own.
Valued Member
skip79's Avatar
Canada
403 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2014  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skip79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, Bromberg mostly sells CCC (Canadian Coin & Currency) certified notes on TSC.
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doubleeagle59's Avatar
Canada
2495 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2014  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When someone does that, I immediately think of that self-slabber Centsles on ebay (light blue 'NNC' slab, which is pretty much useless).
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