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Roman Silver

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New Member

United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  05:12 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mruseful to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all.
This is just a quick observation that I recently came across on one of my broken silver Roman coins. I know that silver coinage was diluted with base metals or plated in the later years as inflation took hold but didn't pay much attention to the process.
I noticed this while trying to clean a broken coin (lemon juice) and thought I would put a picture of the inner core on here, as I thought it worth seeing.


Roman-Silver

Roman-Silver

You have all probably seen this before but not me. I would have thought that if copper (looks like copper) was added to silver in the minting process, it would all be lumped together but in these 2 instances it's more like clumping. It makes cleaning a coin to a uniform silver colour very difficult.
Oh well. Something for you to ponder over Xmas. Hope everyone has a great time.
Cheers.
Si.
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe it's just the picture, but it looks like a really thick coin. Are you sure it's a silver coin and not bronze? All the same it's interesting to see how the two metals combined.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Roman denarii in particular seem to suffer from a form of degradation over 20 centuries, known as silver crystallization.

The silver has not corroded, the silver atoms within the body of some denarii re align themselves to form a crystal lattice at the atomic level. The result is that the silver can become VERY delicately brittle. Typical is the result you see here in these pictures. In the ultimate worst case, the coin will just collapse into a silver powder.

It is worth Googling
'silver crystallization' and 'horn silver' to find out more.
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chrsmat71's Avatar
United States
4971 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chrsmat71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hu...interesting indeed.

it looks like a bronze coin to me instead of a silver.
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  1:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mruseful to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi.
Thanks for all your views about this one.
The coin is actually in 2 halves but I have researched it to a point.
Obverse reads ANTONINUS ________
Reverse reads what looks like LIBERALITAS AVUVI
That's what it looks like anyway. Also I have had silver coins turn this black colour which is so hard to get to silver. Also silver is very hard when it's black like this. That applies in this case except where it shows the copper colour.
Anyway its too dark now to take a picture but I will put one on tomorrow just in case anyone is interested.
Thanks for all your efforts today folks.
As usual it is greatly appreciated and I hope I am not boring you all.
Until tomorrow.
Cheers.
Valued Member
United States
61 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rasiel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silver crystallization doesn't happen from "silver atoms realigning". It is a mechanical rather than chemical event (although at a microscopic level). What happens is that when silver and copper are melted together they don't fully dissolve. Since copper doesn't mix very well into silver the two start separating into bubbles with copper trapped in between sort of like bricks and mortar. Over time those "bubbles" start sliding past each other from stress and near the surface copper is eaten away from oxidation. It's as if the mortar turns to dust and the bricks become looser. Over time the whole matrix becomes weaker as the millions of little silver bubbles detach from each other.

In this case that there is not a silver coin. It's what is typically referred to as a "limes denarius" which is really little more than a fancy way of saying old counterfeit.

Ras
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chuy1530's Avatar
United States
513 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuy1530 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, to be more accurate, a "limes" wasn't really a counterfeit. Or at least we aren't sure whether or not they were. Most of the sources I've read think that they were minted officially out toward the borders of the empire where there wasn't enough silver to mint regular ones and the soldiers still had to be paid. They also could have been basically barbarian imitations from the fringes of the empire, but they are really good copies if that is what they were.
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MetDet71's Avatar
United Kingdom
1569 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Check MetDet71's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add MetDet71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are they 2 halfs of the same coin, or at least the same break? The deposits don't line up?
You will never soar like an eagle if you hang around with turkeys.....
Edited by MetDet71
12/21/2014 04:52 am
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2014  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
rasiel:
That is an improvement on the expalnation that I had understood.
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 12/21/2014  06:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mruseful to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good morning all.
The first answer is that this coin was in 3 pieces. I showed pictures of 2 of them so they may have looked strange. I will now show the bits put together so to speak.
As I say this is Antoninus but someone may be able to tell me more about it.

Roman-Silver

Roman-Silver

Roman-Silver
The pics above are with the bits together.Note the 2 single copper cores that run through the coin.These come through if I try to clean it back to silver. The remaining black sections are very much harder and a lot more difficult to clean. If the coin can be identified for sure it may become clearer if this coin is real or fake. I think it's a real Denarius.
--------------------------------------
Roman-Silver

The piece above is on its own and is of Severus but was left in the same Lemon Juice for the same time but no other colours in the core.
-------------------------------------------------
Roman-Silver

This piece above is also the only piece and is a Denarius of Gordian also left in the lemon juice-No change to the core.
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Compare to these 'silver' coins.


Roman-Silver

Roman-Silver
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Roman-Silver

Roman-Silver
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Roman-Silver

Roman-Silver
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The upper 2 pics is a 'Denarius' of Gordian - Copper coming through the plating.
The middle and lower coins I have not researched as yet so someone may be able to help me those (look at the Emperors nose in the bottom coin) Phew!!
I must admit that I am becoming very reluctant buying any more Roman Silver if this is what I get, and these are not the only ones that I have unknowingly bought.Other buyers may not try to clean their coins as I do.
I hope you all find this as interesting as I have.
Cheers.
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Medieval's Avatar
3772 Posts
 Posted 12/21/2014  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I might be wrong, your broken coin seem to be from Caracalla.
Valued Member
United States
61 Posts
 Posted 12/21/2014  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rasiel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The black one from the original picture is definitely a "limes"; ie., not silver at all. The middle one is a very debased antoninianus (apparently a Tetricus I) and the bottom one a fourree which is yet another type of counterfeit consisting of a silver bath over scrap metal.

The problem isn't that the Roman coins have little silver. It looks like you went for bottom of the barrel examples. I'm guessing all three came in a $5 lot or thereabouts? Here's a couple of links for coins of good silver that should cost no more than about $30:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231425879881
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400827629387
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331418827479

Ras
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2014  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mruseful to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In reply to your reply, Ras. Unfortunately, I cannot always afford to go for the upper price range coins and have had bargains in the past that have still been 'solid' silver. Also, the unbroken Gordian coin above was bought from a very reputable dealer as a silver Denarius and that's the 2nd time.
The broken coin is definitely silver if somewhat diluted as the non-copper parts are cleaning as good silver.
I thnk I am going to have to go for Republic coins as they are more likely to be Solid silver rather than the later debased type.
It's amazing what 5 mins in Lemon Juice will reveal though. A great many thanks to all who replied to my tiresome post.
Have a very nice Xmas one and all.
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