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Augustus Maximus's Avatar
Italy
1790 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  1:17 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Augustus Maximus to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have been collecting Ancients for fours years and I still have many questions. I would like to ask you all some questions and rid myself of ignorance.

Question 1
- Why did the Roman Emperors swich to the Diademed and replaced the laurel wreath with it?
Question 2
- Why is Magnentius almost always shown not wearing a diademed or Laurel wreath?
Question 3
- Why is Vetranio wearing a Laurel wreath instead of a Diademed?
Question 4
-If the Romans were running out of silver in the 3rd century then how did they make the large issues of Siliqua in the fourth century?

Question 5
- Do we know what those AE issues in the 300''s could buy or what they were worth?
Question 6
-Were taxes in the 4th century taken up in Siliqua or just Solidii?


Thanks. I really want to know these answers and you ladies and gentlemen are the best of the best to ask.
Edited by Augustus Maximus
03/08/2015 1:20 pm
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pishpash's Avatar
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beats me
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For questions 1 - 4 I have no idea. On question 5 I've seen some information on what was thought the value of an AE coin could buy. I think if you do an internet search you will find some information. On your last question as pish says beats me alos.
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NJ Bob's Avatar
United States
655 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJ Bob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Regarding question 4, it is my understanding that it wasn't so much that Rome was running out of silver as it was wide spread corruption at the mints.

This from Wikipedia:

"Aurelian's reign records the only uprising of mint workers. The rationalis Felicissimus, a senior public financial official whose responsibilities included supervision of the mint at Rome, revolted against Aurelian. The revolt seems to have been caused by the fact that the mint workers, and Felicissimus first, were accustomed to stealing the silver for the coins and producing coins of inferior quality. Aurelian wanted to eliminate this, and put Felicissimus under trial. The rationalis incited the mintworkers to revolt: the rebellion spread in the streets, even if it seems that Felicissimus was killed immediately, presumably executed."
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pishpash's Avatar
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The diadem came in with Diocletian. Perhaps there were no bay trees where he was at the time?
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antwerpen2306's Avatar
Belgium
1194 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add antwerpen2306 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
six very good questions.I will try to answer by memory now , and will look further into 2 weeks when I am back.
1:about 300 AD the Augusti became dominus and all the system changed of name and became 'dominaat',I don t know the English term but Ithink you understand.
2.I don t know,I have no coins of Magn. and didn t know it.Will look for an answer later,if necessary.
3.Vetranio expressed his loyalty to Constantius and once this one was in command,he abdicated.I thinh he showed in this way his respect.
4.from the middle of the 3rd century,roman silvermines became exhausted , if I remenber well , tjey had many problems with the mines in Spain .They had also to keep many legions on the limes wich needed a lot af money , because the soldiers were paid in denarii.Caracalla tried a first reform,creating the antoninus = 2 denarii but only the weight of 1,5 denarius.It is only with Gordianus III that the denarius began to disappear.It was also the time that the emperors changed all the time and that there was a big inflation of the money.It is Aurelianus who mad a moneyreform creating the aurelianus! remenber XXI on the coins) and fixed a minimun of silver to be in the 'silver'coins.After him , it was Diocletianus who made many reforms,creating first the argenteus and later the siliqua,but I don t know very much of this period.
5.An inscription has be found,dating from the time of Diocletianus (not sure it is him),wherein the prices were fixed, but even in that time,money had no value.We name this coin now nummus = coin or follis = wallet,purse .We don t know the latin names .
6.I think in solidi , because it was the only metal that all the pure and correct was , with one exeption in the second half of the 3rd century for some years.On the other hand , it is difficult to imagine that everybody has gold at home.
So,thats is what I can answer immediatly,once back,I will liik for further answrs,if necessary.albert
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Augustus Maximus's Avatar
Italy
1790 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Augustus Maximus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Antwerpen! You have given some very good answers!
But I always thought Constantine I instituted the diademed not Diocletian?
Also if the Empire was running low on silver for its Spanish mines then how did they issue large issues ofSiliqua in the later 4th century
. Any idea on what the nummi could buy in the mid to late 300's.
Edited by Augustus Maximus
03/08/2015 5:57 pm
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pishpash's Avatar
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3626 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might be correct AM I got it from the "diadem" entry from wiki

"A diadem is also a jewelled ornament in the shape of a half crown, worn by women and placed over the forehead (in this sense, also called tiara). In some societies, it may be a wreath worn around the head. The ancient Persians wore a high and erect royal tiara encircled with a diadem. Hera, queen of the Greek gods, wore a golden crown called the diadem.

By extension, "diadem" can be used generally for an emblem of regal power or dignity. The head regalia worn by Roman Emperors, from the time of Diocletian onwards, is described as a diadem in the original sources. It was this object that the Foederatus general Odoacer returned to Emperor Zeno (the Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire) after his expulsion of the usurper Romulus Augustus from Rome in 476 CE."
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 Posted 03/08/2015  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Diocletian reorganized the entire imperial system from top to bottom. From the economic reforms (strict price controls) to the very nature of the principate itself. The period of the third century saw an unprecedented series of imperial assassinations and usurpations. Diocletian made the emperor into what Gibbon thought was unlike the western tradition of the emperor as a man to the eastern tradition of the emperor as a god and as such completely unapproachable. Those who approached walk through long corridors of hallways and rings of imperial guards. The soldier emperors of Illyria adopted wearing Asian silk slippers and petitioners prostrated themselves at a safe distance. The pearl diadem was probably another eastern tradition which Rome gradually succumbed to. Those occasional wearers of the laurel were the holdouts who were not going with the flow ! The emperor was gods representative and anybody who challenged god got what was coming to them.
It's worth noting that in this day of loud championing of individual rights and limitation on the power of the 'emperor' what we celebrate is neither Roman tradition nor eastern Biblical belief. The Magna Carta and the limits on supreme power owe to a newer jurisprudence. Queen Elizabeth II traces her line back not to either prophets nor Roman Senators. The wild and wooly immigrants from the north brought with them the odd notion of people having rights as an individual apparat from that of the unit.
And the 'King' receives his authority from all us peasants down below ...... and not some link with the 'guy' upstairs !
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Augustus Maximus's Avatar
Italy
1790 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  8:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Augustus Maximus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tho I disagree about the part with the barbarians that was an excellent post FR. Thank you very much.
Echizento, do you remember the name of that website? I have been searching on the Internet for an hour or so and can't find anything on the value of 4th cent. Nummi.
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pishpash's Avatar
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3626 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Magnentius may not have wanted to muss up his hair?

I read somewhere that the diadem was borrowed from the Greeks.

Too late, off to bed.....
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Augustus Maximus's Avatar
Italy
1790 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Augustus Maximus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Correct Pish,the Diademed is an eastern phenomenon.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16849 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1. By 300 AD, the Romans had basically gotten over their phobia of monarchy, that dominated their earlier history. They were no longer afraid to adopt overtly "royal" symbolism, such as the diadem, a jewel-encrusted ribbon of cloth first used by the Babylonians, then the Persians, then the Seleucid Greeks and Parthians, but up until the time of Diocletian considered too "royal" a symbol to be worn by Romans. I believe this change in culture came about largely because of the military anarchy of the third century, where various factions of the army basically enthroned and deposed emperors almost at random. Adopting the trappings of royalty perhaps gave them some of the "divine right to rule" protections afforded to kings and not to generals.

2. and 3. The system of uniform Empire-wide coinage issued from numerous mints, implemented under the reforms of Diocletian, implies the existence of some kind of official master portraiture, a model which the die-cutters in the various mints throughout the Empire each copied in their own way. If the official portrait had a diadem, then the coins all showed him wearing a diadem; if bare-headed, then the coins were bare-headed, and so forth.

This does not of course answer the deeper question, of why particular emperors chose to be depicted wearing particular headgear. They may have been trying to make a statement, like Jovian II with his long beard, but I don't think we are in any position to make conclusions about the meaning of being bare-headed or laureate instead of diademed.

4. The fineness of the denarius/antoninianus did not rapidly decline during the third century because the Empire "ran out of silver"; it declined because of inflation: the need to make the finite amount of silver available go just a little bit further than it used to. These days, if a government wants to create more money, they can just wave their magic wands and make the printing presses go a little faster. Back then, to make more money, they either had to mine (or steal) more silver, or make the silver in each coin more dilute.

5. One of the few surviving accounts of the monetary system of the Late Roman period is Diocletian's "Edict of Maximum Prices"; read the Wikipedia article on it for more info, and Here's the Google Books version of the Edict itself.

6. Taxes were charged using the money of account of the day - if the Edict quoted above is any indication, the money of account was the "denarius", of which all coins commonly in circulation were multiples of. The government, at least, recognized the official exchange rates when taxes were paid, so you could pay them in whichever form of coinage was most convenient to you.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Augustus Maximus's Avatar
Italy
1790 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2015  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Augustus Maximus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much Sap! You basically answered all my questions . I made a mistake though. When I meant nummi I meant the AE issues from the Constantine-Valentinian dynasty's not the large Folli of the tetrarchy.
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Sap's Avatar
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16849 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To a large extent, we simply don't know with any certainty what the denominations of many of the "Late Roman Bronzes" were supposed to be, either in relation to each other, to earlier or later coins, or to the money of account. We have Diocletian's edict which gives a good breakdown of official prices and face values of coins under the Tetrarchy, but we have very little in the way of similar surviving systematic records of the monetary system between the Edict and the "Byzantine" coinage reforms of Anastasius. We find only occasional references to specific coins in the surviving histories: the "centenionalis", presumably so-called because it was slated at being worth 100 denarii, is one example. What this meant for prices is uncertain; as the solid silver argentus was originally also slated at 100 denarii, the denarius had obviously lost a lot of value between AD 298 and AD 340.

People were simply too busy surviving to worry about writing things down for posterity. Or if someone did write such things down, the collective accidents of history have not preserved them.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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