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Laser Scanning/Grading

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zakgold's Avatar
United States
382 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2005  10:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add zakgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I know that this has been tried a couple times before, but now I feel that with the recent success of laser scanning (including the new multi-linear scanners), there could be a huge market in the numismatic community.

Why? Human subjectivity. One person sees a coin as a MS65 and the other as a 64. The result could be hundreds if not thousands of dollars! Also, 90 days plus to render a grade and fulfill a service is unacceptable. Think about it? How long does a grader from a TPG actually look at your coin? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? 15 seconds? If you get 15 seconds, you are lucky before they move on to the next coin. Divide the number of submissions among the available graders at a TPG and that is how I came up with the time per coin.

Think about this...it is 4:55 PM on a Friday and your coins are being graded. Is that grader as sharp as he was at 9:00 after he has his coffee?

We all know the limitations about grading and some TPG's do a better job than others, but they still are human and humans will always make mistakes. Rendering opinions compounds these errors further.

Now computer grading has been bounced around because if we can take the human element out of grading, that would be a good thing. The problem is how do you collect the data? That is where laser scanning fills the hole. The advent and success of laser scanning has the ability to scan surfaces of an object whereby mathematical figures are assigned to a given point (x,y,z values). They are uploaded to the computer where they are stored. That is the best thing about numbers. They are not descriptions with adjectives. Coin "A" has a value of 5 and the submitted coin has value of "3"...the differance is 2. There is NO other answer.

Now when you scan a second surface of the same object, any differances (Delta values) can be measured against the given. The greater the differances, the lower the grade (when it comes to coin grading).

I know what you are thinking...so what is the given? Let's say I am ANACS (or whatever TPG) and I have 10 MS67 1909-P Lincolns at my disposal. You can scan all 10 of these "same" coins from the "same" grade and collectively develop an average or "given" database. This is what any future 1909-P 1c submissions will be compared against. The greater the differance, the lower the grsde.

Now this would be idea for technical grades as lasers can scan within microns of any imperfection and find those nicks or marks faster and more accurately than the human eye. If you want to set the scanner to no more than 5 or 7 times power to replicate the conditions that TPG graders operate under, so be it.

What about color, luster, DMPL's, eye appeal, etc.? I call that step #2 as today we have instruments that accurately measure color, light reflection (from a calibrated and consistent light source). If you want to keep a human element into the equation, then keep them for just this function of eye appeal only. You could do something like NGC does with their STAR designation.

We all see things differantly and there lies the problem when I am describing a coin as you may see it totally differant than I do. Sure you are still going to be the final authority if you agree or disagree, but wouldn't it be great if there ever was an even "grading" field we all could trust and use? Imagine the same coin being graded a 100 times and the result is always the same...and CORRECT!

Take a look of this laser scanned image of Washington. Each point as a numerical x,y, and z value. Now scan a second image of Washington and compare it to this numerical databank...the greater the change, the less the grade.
Laser-Scanning/Grading

BTW, for those dooms day critics that will suggest computer tampering and fraud...YES...it could happen, but you could make that case with anything that is bought and sold. I am just making a case for the application of this proven technology as it works in other industries...TODAY!
Edited by zakgold
09/07/2005 11:09 am
Valued Member
CiScO's Avatar
United States
458 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2005  11:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CiScO to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I basically agree with your premise, in fact I do believe there was a TPG company that did use lasers but I believe I read some place that it went defunct, outa business and it was heavily criticized. I do not remember the name of the company, but I do believe somebody already gave it try..Why it did not succeed I do not know. Perhaps some one who remembers the details about that company will post info on them..Laser-Scanning/Grading
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2005  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was CompuGrade. Here is a link to some info:

http://www.sampleslabs.com/compugrade.html
Valued Member
zakgold's Avatar
United States
382 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2005  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zakgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Computers can only perform functions (i.e., calculate, tabulate, sort, etc.) what data is imported.

The key is how the data is collected. 3D Laser scanning for indentification and data control is relatively new and I doubt seriously that CompuGrade had anything near to what is being used in today's marketplace.
Pillar of the Community
ageka's Avatar
Belgium
2078 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2005  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ageka to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An uncirculated fake coin probably would be graded as XF
I worked with lasers they are only as good as the image recognition program attached to them

Those 31 kilo Wiener philharmonider coins were sculpted by a lazer because no press was big enough to strike them
Valued Member
Stujoe's Avatar
United States
421 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2005  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stujoe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You have to wonder if this is something the 'market' would really want or something the big boys would allow to happen. There is a lot of money made on crackouts, upgrades, crack out candidates, PQ for the grades, etc both for dealers and TPGs. That cash cow disappears if the grading is truely reproducable.

Just a thought...
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