Satirical "hobo" Engraving Of Ferdinand VII On Charles IV 8R

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 1,723
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 03/20/2015 6:08 pm An older thread showing an example: http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...PIC_ID=57804 Bob, you've mentioned these before.... I thought these have been shown more on this forum besides the single thread I could find (though they pop up on ebay and elsewhere from time to time)... Several have popped up on ebay recently... First these two from a British seller on Mexico City pieces (one of which has several Chinese chops): http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-CHAR...201259779742 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-CHAR...311248560403 Then this piece... interesting on a much scarcer Santiago mint 8 Reales host: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chile-1799-...171700505314 I actually snagged this one... Thought it went very cheap considering it's Chile. I think the weight may have scared some people... but there's an interesting story there. Seller noted weight of 24g (I get 24.0 exactly), chalking it up to the portrait alteration, but that would seem too low considering you can still discern much of Charles underneath. Seeing the pics, knew there was more to it - look at how cropped the edges are... in addition to the portrait alteration... they stole some silver! In hand... a segment of the original circle/rect edge is intact (looking at the obv) from the right boundary of the 1799 digits, clockwise until about the "L" in CAROLUS. After that, the rest of the edge has been clipped or shaved down... However, someone (fairly neatly, though still a bit crudely) carved replacement circles/rectangles along the cut-down edge by hand to cover up the theft. Interesting additional caveat to this curious type. Was trying to find more on these online but its hard to search the topic since you can use so many different terms to describe the effect (plus the pertinent info could be in Spanish). Bob or others, thoughts on the origins of these? Ferdinand VII, of course, was not really well thought of... but anything more specific? Interesting that you find these carvings such varied pieces as Mexico and Santiago... I also have pics of a similar Lima 8R and a 1821 Zacatecas with a small head carved in the field facing the actual coined portrait. Does that suggest they trace to a common area of handling like homeland Spain? Report this Post to the Staff

BillSnyder Pillar of the Community 778 Posts	Posted 03/20/2015 8:22 pm I really like that Mexican 1798 8R, King with hairdo (on the upper left)! Bill Report this Post to the Staff
thq Pillar of the Community United States 3343 Posts	Posted 03/20/2015 9:03 pm I like the reworked nose on the 1806. The Charley Brown treatment. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 03/22/2015 3:00 pm The 1798 and 1806 came from the same seller in England... a lot more effort went into the 1798 it seems. Bill, you collect Spanish and have an eye for oddball stuff, so I assume you've seen a few of these before? Know anything specific of their origin(s)? Report this Post to the Staff
BillSnyder Pillar of the Community 778 Posts	Posted 03/22/2015 4:47 pm No, realeswatcher, these are new to me, though I do collect oddball items. I also would be interested in learning more about them. Bill Report this Post to the Staff
jerseyben Pillar of the Community United States 1211 Posts	Posted 03/23/2015 09:18 am I was the underbidder on the 1799. Report this Post to the Staff
PatAR Valued Member United States 262 Posts	Posted 04/05/2015 2:59 pm While I have no particular knowledge of these recarved coins, I thought I might shed some light on historical information that may be of use. In 1808 the French captured and forced Ferdinand VII and his father Charles IV to abdicate and subjected Spain to French rule under Joseph I. The Spanish resistance crafted the Constitution of 1812 which declared Ferdinand king (primarily because he was Spanish). However, that same Constitution called for many progressive measures which granted citizens more civil liberties and input in government. Upon Ferdinand's return as king it wasn't long before he discarded this in favor of his absolute rule. Had his leadership been wise this might have sufficed, but it was not. His actions, or lack thereof, further contributed to the loss of most of Spain's colonies and economic uncertainty in Spain. A rebellion in 1820 forced Ferdinand VII to accept a constitutional monarchy as he was essentially a captive in his own palace. In 1823 the restored French monarchy sent troops to free Ferdinand VII. Despite his many promises of amnesty, Ferdinand VII took ruthless vengeance upon all involved in his captivity and in the progressive movement. In short, while Spaniards may have identified with Ferdinand VII during the French invasion of 1808-1813, after that time most Spaniards thought of him as cruel and treacherous. I wonder if these carvings may have had different intent depending on when they were made. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 04/05/2015 11:00 pm I put a small section on coins of this type in my book on pages 179 to 182. These were first mentioned (as far as I can determine) by Calbetto in his "Compendium of the Eight Reales". I have never been able to determine why they were made. I have seen many examples where the revised head resembles Ferdinand and those have drops or bubbles near the King's mouth. I interpreted that as symbolic of his possibly being a drunk. Since Ferdinand was actually put on the throne by Napoleon to replace Charles IV - I wondered if they could be protests as well. Interesting to speculate. Here are the ones from the book. The fact that the rim was cut to steal silver is also documented in my book ppg 183-186. It is one of several methods of silver stealing. The following picture shows a coin which also had the edge partially removed. Why they did not remove the entire edge I do not know. Your coin represents two different alterations. Report this Post to the Staff
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Satirical "Hobo" Engraving Of Ferdinand VII On Charles IV 8R