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Can This Large Cent Be Saved?

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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/18/2015  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Xylene is in the acetone family of solutions - worthwhile for what they do, but completely different in mission than Verdi-Care. It's what you use to get the stuff off the coin that's going to prevent Verdi-Care from working.
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gmwatson's Avatar
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 Posted 04/18/2015  10:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gmwatson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So if I understand this correctly, Acetone will address stuff like PVC residue and general gunk adhering to the coin ... not so good on the verdigris. Xylene is a bit tougher solution and will address the verdigris which can inhibit Verdicare's ability to protect(?) the coin.

I guess I thought the Verdicare was used to remove the verdigris and protect ... wasn't aware you might want to try the Xylene prior.

The second round did appear to provide some improvement albeit the coin looks to be a bit bleached out as compared to the previous photo. Was that a photo matter or did the second treatment affect the field color slightly?
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westcoin's Avatar
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 Posted 04/18/2015  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Acetone and Xylene will do essentially the same thing, which is remove oils and any other organic contaminants (PVC, Varnish, Glue). Verdi-Care is going to work it's way into the old verdigris, and with the help of a soft brush or rose thorn/toothpick, help to remove decades of old scale deposits. Verdi-Care also does impart a protective quality of coating, though since BadThad is the inventor he can probably impart more info on that feature. For old copper collectors, we used to preserve the coins with Blue Ribbon (no longer made nor will it due too dangerous banned ingredients), from my understanding Verdi-Care does much the same thing.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/19/2015  12:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Acetone and Xelene are organic solvents, used to thin paint. They have no effect whatsoever on the metal, nor anything inorganic (like verdigris) on a coin. The only way acetone can help verdigris is by dehydrating it (acetone is sufficiently miscible to pull water away from it). Verdi-Care is not an organic solvent, and will work better if you remove the organic crud first. Even the oils you can't see.
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2015  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So if I understand this correctly, Acetone will address stuff like PVC residue and general gunk adhering to the coin ... not so good on the verdigris. Xylene is a bit tougher solution and will address the verdigris which can inhibit VerdiCare's ability to protect(?) the coin.


Acetone is a polar, organic solvent. It works differently from xylene since xylene is a non-polar, organic solvent. Neither organic solvent will dissolve verdigris because verdigris is primarily composed of inorganic salts.

We only recommend using acetone/xylene on coins contaminated with verdigris to remove any organic residues that may be covering or mixed with the verdigris. They have no effect on the efficacy of VERDI-CARE™. However, organic surfaces residues will effect the ability of VC to get to the verdigris and do it's job....hence the recommendation.
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2015  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Acetone and Xelene are organic solvents, used to thin paint. They have no effect whatsoever on the metal, nor anything inorganic (like verdigris) on a coin. The only way acetone can help verdigris is by dehydrating it (acetone is sufficiently miscible to pull water away from it). Verdi-Care is not an organic solvent, and will work better if you remove the organic crud first. Even the oils you can't see.




To add to this, dehydrating verdigris with acetone is an excellent conservation practice. If you're not going to remove it, dehydration basically "inactivates" the verdigris since it needs water to develop and grow. If you take away feed materials, verdigris will be dormant.
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GERMANICVS's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2015  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting comments on the differences between acetone and xylene:

Since xylene has a primarily non-polar character (as opposed to acetone which is much more polar), and since the 'junk' which accumulates on coins is probably primarily non-polar in character (finger oils for example), logic would dictate that it should be more effective than acetone in removing debris from coins. However, as some of the deposits are probably also slightly polar (PVC residue of example), it is probable best to use both solvent, in sequence.

Of course, neither xylene nor acetone will remove verdigris (as mentioned by badThad). Interesting point he makes, though, that acetone may help slowing/stop its spreading by removing water.
Edited by GERMANICVS
04/21/2015 1:33 pm
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2015  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
it is probable best to use both solvent, in sequence.


In general, I have found xylene to be vastly better than acetone at removing surface residues. However, it is good practice to use BOTH as you stated - as residues can be highly variable and are unpredictable even to experienced conservationists.


Quote:
Interesting point he makes, though, that acetone may help slowing/stop its spreading by removing water.


Most verdigris cannot form without water. The only exception I know of is with PVC. This is an unusual case due to formation of hydrochloric acid. Free chloride ions are highly corrosive to metals and, in copper containing alloys, create cupric chloride (a type of verdigris) which imparts a greenish tint to the organic residue.

One of the biggest coin myths is that PVC residue is not verdigris. In itself, it is not, however, there is definitely verdigris (cupric chloride) in the residue matrix (thus the greenish color).
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2015  3:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love learning new stuff, and this thread is becoming a feast.
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cipster's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2015  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cipster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I love learning new stuff, and this thread is becoming a feast.


SsuperDdave - I agree - this thread is a keeper
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mdpmedia's Avatar
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 Posted 09/27/2015  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On another note the experts here have thrown around the terms 'polar' and 'non-polar' frequently in this thread.

So for the benefit of the non-chemists in the crowd here is what they refer to:

The best and most simplistic example is that oils generally are non-polar molecules while water(agua in Spanish) is a polar molecule.

Try pouring some non-polar olive oil in a glass of polar water and note how the oil forms a completely separate layer from the water: technically not a solution. Thus, they will not form a miscible solution.

This is the exact reason why a non-polar xylene rinse on a distilled water-soaked coin, for example, does not make sense or accomplish anything beneficial in terms of removing entrapped polar H2O molecules.

On the other hand, since alcohol is a polar molecule very similar to water, it will form a solution when mixed with water without the formation of two distinct separate layers in a glass.

In summary, all one truly has to remember is one simplistic phrase -

'LIKE DISSOLVES LIKE':

a) polar dissolves polar and

B) non-polar dissolves non-polar

With these concepts in mind you'll better grasp the essential fundamentals of cleaning/restoring coins.

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mdpmedia's Avatar
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 Posted 09/27/2015  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Most verdigris cannot form without water...


I've previously recommended a concept to comply with the above statement but just in case some have not seen it, the following 'inexpensive' trick is a method to diminish or eliminate atmospheric H2O surrounding stored coins.

This container-enclosed silica product is conveniently reusable: turning color from orange to green when saturated w/ agua.

To rejuvenate these crystals just nuke the entire container-enclosed silica for 30 seconds etc.

Sometimes, I have picked up 20 of these kits at a shot from both Family Dollar and Big Lots for $ 1.00 each when these stores acquired them from bulk close-out purchases.

In summary, it is not absolutely necessary to keep each container-enclosed silica in a 'sealed' enclosure per the instructions on the package. Instead, placing a couple of these containers on each side of a three(3) ft. wide shelf withing a safe or a box, for instance, is sufficient to lesson ambient water vapor:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...ondition=new











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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 09/27/2015  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great thread! Thank you all for sharing. Cipster, nice job with the conservation!
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