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 Replies: 17 / Views: 2,514 |
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
I have to do an art project for school. I only have 3 more classes to do (including this part project) and then I am doing with 12 grade, going out in the real world. This transition is going to be hard for me. I've read alot for numismatics. What I've read is all relative really, since some people don't read at all, and others read as much as they can. I'm 17, and I've read around 4 books. It's a good start I guess. I've been going to other forums, before this one and have learned alot about coins. All the lingo. Let me tell you about me I am 17, my name is Kevin. I grew up in California, now live in arizona. I have a profound memory, I can remember my first day of kindergarden, and my first days I collected coins. I have gotten nothing but helpful advice here, be it warm, or constructive. I'm also interested in learning multiple languages, french, spanish, japanese especially etc. I am also interested into calculus, and higher math levels. I have Calculus For Dummies, and vector calculus from another author. Before high school, my math was horrible. I've learned myself that you can do anything you set your mind to with alot of persistance and determination. In high school, I got all A's in math and science, and my science grade was for awhile at 112%, the highest grade out of all 6 periods of students. I decided I wanted to be an engineer in astrophysics, or quantum physics, or just a physcist. I have gotten alot of support from my grandpa who is an investor/engineer. I'd also love to work in a coin store oneday. But for now, I plan to move to japan and live there for several years. I am learning japanese. I also got an award for the best improved grades from the Rotary Club. Ever since I was 6 I've become interested in numismatics. I got my first gold coin around 9, and since then I've collecte gold coins. I made this thread to tell some members here more about me, and that I needed help on this art project. Speedy has provided me with a great link to modern coin making, at the PCGS website. I will go there myself and try to find more help info. Is the PCGS price guide accurate? I realise I could just figure out everything by myself, but I like to make it interesting. I've always had a thing with welcomign new members and helping out people who don't know as much as me in numismatics. So please, if any ofyou have any questions, I will try to answer them the best I can, I would be more than happy to If anyone would mind, I would love to have a link on ancient coins, I do already have a few books on how counterfeits are made (spark erosion, cast methods etc) and the screwpress which was used to make coins in the early 1800's in the united states. Spanish gold was also used as currency until 1857 in the US. Here's the finished essay, double spaced, 10 pages. (Note: The latter part is a revised/reworded/rewritten part taken from the PCGS Guide to grading Counterfeit Detection)
Making coins, and the study of coins (numismatics) are not an exact science. Both, however, take art. It takes engravers and designers to carve the designs on a coin mold, how they want the designs to be. These are very skilled artists. Grading a coin has many factors involved, and it is a science and art to be able to grade a coin 'correctly". Many people cannot grade coins correctly, or want a professional to grade them to reinforce their value (Coins value is based on the grade, or how good of condition the coin is in) so they send them into third party grading services. There are more than 3, but the first three are considered the best. From 1st best to 3rd best, most people regard it as follows: PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. I put correctly in parenthesis because grading is a science and an art, but it also is largely subjective opinion. However, just as there are good grading services, there are also ones that are not reliable and not reputable. Anything but the top three, as a general rule, is not reputable. Here are some factors that effect coin grading:
1) Wear vs. Incomplete striking
Wear is wear of the coins condition. Through circulation, or when coins are put out to the public to spend, eventually, the coins are worn due from friction. Each time you handle a coin, plop it into a soda machine, or drop it, microscopic pieces of metal on the coin wear off. Through decades of the coins lifespan, the coin is worn down, the details on the coin get 'smeared', and this is called wear. The more coin the wear has, the lower the condition. Coins from before 1964 generally have an significant amount of wear. Coins, of course, since they are metal, last much longer than paper bills. A dollar bill will only last a few months then is no longer fit for circulation. Now coins last many decades before they are worn out completely. The more wear a coin has, the lower its grade, or condition. Lets do an example. Take a coin from 1990, generally a coin this recent will have little wear.
Of course it will probably have many scratches on it, called hairlines and, scratches are called bag marks, and it is called this because what happens to a coin when its in a mint bag, the coins get scratched up.
Now take a coin from 1908, this coin has been in circulation for a very long time. So long, in fact, that you're unlikely to find any today because 1) The silver standard was stopped, because the price of silver was too high, so high in fact it was over the face value of the coins. Face value is the how much the coin is worth. For example, a dollar has a dollar face value. A quarter has 25 cents face value. And a dime has 10 cents face value. So in 1965, the price of silver went OVER the face value. So what would people do? They would melt the silver coins down and sell the silver for profit. The coins were meant to be spent, not melted down. And with the rising price of silver, in 1965 the mint took all of the silver out of all the denominations except for the half dollar. The half dollar had only 40% silver now. Before this, all coins had 90% silver. In 1970, the price of silver was so high that they had to replace all the denominations with copper nickel clad, and none of the money had any silver in it. And 2) Almost all of these coins have been plucked out of circulation by curious people, thinking they are Canadian coins or foreign coins. Or just by collectors.
Striking just refers to how well the coin was struck.
The history of coins
Today we think of coins as small round metallic pieces of metal, which has its value stamped on it, in which we use to trade it for goods and services. However, our early ancestors had no idea of this kind of money. The first money was money was not coinage, but rather anything they could barter, or trade. Throughout history, anything that had value (perceived by the people as value) was considered money. Cattle, grain, pottery, and tools all served as money in barter systems in ancient times. When people found out that silver, gold, and other precious metals were rare and precious, did they use coins as value. The first coins were made in sixth century BC in the Asia Minor kingdom of Lydia.
The first metal money was not coins, but rather ingots, or metal bars. These ingots were made out of gold, silver, and copper and were more compact and convenient than the more cumbersome money before the time (cattle , for example). They were primitive however, just lumps of metal, and only gradually evolved into coins as we know them today.
As time evolved, the ingots were hammered into coins through the use of primitive dies. Dies are pieces of hard, engraved metal, normally tempered steel, used for stamping coins or medals. Ancient minters used the hardest metal available, although these metals weren't very reliable and easy to mint coins, since they did not have steel and only had bronze and tin, but oddly, there were even occasions where dies were made out of wood.
Now, the mint makes one die for the obverse of the coin (the heads side), and one for the reverse (tails side). The design on the die would be engraved into each of them in a mirror image fashion, the opposite of the way it would appear on the coin. Thus, when the coin was struck with the die, the coin would appear 'normal', that is, the design on the coin had relief, which means the designs on the coin are raised above the surface of the coin. With rare exceptions throughout history, including the American $2.50 gold indian head, and the $5 gold indian head, the die was actually reversed, where the die is not incused, but rather has relief, this would struck the coin so it had an incuse (below the surface) design. What early miners would do to mint their coins (since they obviously didn't have modern minting equipment) , was set up one die in a fixed position, place an ingot on top, align another die above the ingot, then strike the upper die with a hammer or other heavy instrument for striking coins to drive the ingot into the lower die.
The very first coins, being primitive, had no design or art in them. They only had the statement of their weight and fineness or perhaps a simple seal donating their official status. Portraits of busts of kings and queens, presidents, came later, along with dates and inscriptions and mottos (i.e American motto "In god we trust) as more and more governments, churchs, and kings started issuing coinage. For over 2 millenniums, hammered coins continued to rule. The basic rule was to hammer the designs into a planchet, or blank piece of metal in the shape of a coin.
Sometime in the late 15th century, a new improved way of minting coins was invented. A Italian architect and inventor Donato Bramante made a new kind of minting machine that imparted the design to a planchet not with a blow from a hammer, but rather by the turn of a screw. His machine consisted of a massive screw like device with a die attached to a sleeve along its head. This die was aligned above a second die, and there was a planchet between them, the work force then turned a large metal arms sticking out from the screw to drive the upper die into the planchet, making the design from above and below on both dies.
Orginally, his screwpress wasn't designed for coins but for heavy led papal bulls (official seals) and medals. It was soon used for minting as well, because it had an advantage hammering didn't, it allowed the production of larger size coins, and the coins were more uniform and had a higher quality. When they first appeared for production of coins, screwpresses actually slowed production, the coins turned out to be better, but more time consuming than the hammered coins. Also many minters were were slow to accept the new technology, fearing it might jeopardize their livelihood. As a consequence of this, both methods (hammering and screwpress) existed both together for more than two centuries, enhancements were made to improve the screwpress. By the early eighteenth century, screwpresses proved dominant means of minting and few hammered coins were being minted now.
By the time the United States had gotten its independent from other nations, and had established a federal mint of its own (In Philadelphia) in the early 1790's, the screwpress was an obvious choice to use for them. This mint served for nearly half a century after this as the source of all US coinage and remains today the nations mother mint. In the early days of the US mint, men and horses provided energy and power to run the machines used in the production of the earliest US coins. During this time, primitive tools were used to punch the lettering and date into each die for when the coin was struck and had relief design. As a result, no dies were completely the same, which means different coins with the same design were made, and people started to collect them as 'die varieties'. Technology improved significantly in the 19th century, steam engines were replaced by men and horses as the source of power in european mints, the united states followed, first on a limited minting process in 1816, then for all production in 1836. Another innovation device at the philly mint in 1828, was the introduction of close collar, a device that functioned as a third die to strike the edge of the coin. The collar was slightly larger than the planchet being struck; therefore when the upper die was driven into the planchet, the metal expanded not only into the recesses of the upper and lower dies but also into the collar, which finished the edge.
The coins that were made from this process were therefore more uniform, and their rims were higher and more regular and normal. This process can only be used for coins edges that are plain and reeded. The US mint made reeded coins to thwart the action of people who would file the edges of the coins off for the precious metal, reeding the coins made this harder to do. The combination of the two new minting processes, the new stream driven presses and the new close collar improved both the mints productivity to produce coins and the quality of the US mints coins from 1836 on, although at the sacrifice of all the die varieties that make the earlier coins so distinctive and appealing. Later from this time, oil and coal were used to general steam for the presses, and even later, electrical engines became the standard. Each of these was an improvement, and with every step along the way it resulted in coinage became even more consistant. One system of striking in particular, stands out from all the others. Electric powered presses increased the potential of the striking power behind the dies. Moreover, improved reducing machines made production of the dies more standardized.
The Art of Coin Grading
What do the minting process and type of equipment used in making coins have to do with grading? Also, why are coins graded at all?
With coins, as well as any other collectible, quality is a major consideration. The buyer wants the best example available or at least the best he can afford. The best examples are always in demand, be it a coin, a painting, a music box, an antique dresser, etc. Knowing how a coin was made provides insight into the various attributes that a perfect condition coin specimen of the coin should grant.
This therefore, serve as reference points for the grade, or condition of the coin.
Over the past decades, coin collectors have developed a set of terms or grades, for the coins that they have. This made it easier for them to communication their interests between each other about the coins they wanted, and the condition, this in turn effected the price of the coin, since a coin with a high grade is worth more than a coin with a lower grade. These terms that the collectors used to communicate with for the coins values (the grade) were broad and there weren't many of them to designate the grade at the first, coins were described as in poor, fair, good, fine, excellent, and sometimes just "new" or "used" condition. The value of an excellent graded coin was not that higher, as a rule, than that of a similar coin that was only in good condition. For the same reason, there was no dramatic need to develop more specific degrees of grading. By the mid-twentieth century, price differentials had started to expand and grow, as more and more people began the hobby of collecting coins and the study of numismatics, the demand for better specimens of coins (higher graded coins) exponentially was risen, putting great pressure on their supply, which in higher grades was small compared to with more common lower graded coins. Middle level graded coins (intermediate) came into general use, might be graded as very fine, or extremely fine, or even about uncirculated. These lasted for awhile, but by the 1970's tremendous emphasis was placed on quality of the coins, to a point, now, that one high quality graded coin would raise significant prices to a grade just in a slightly lower grade. This led to the establishment of more specific and formal grading standards, that were recognized and used through the rare coin market, for high end coins, and set the stage for third party grading services professionals, such as PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. Grades go from PO-1, the lowest grade, with this description:
Identification by date and type. To the highest grade possible, considered perfect: MS70/PR70: As struck, with full strike. All details perfect, no scratches or hairlines.
Generally, there are 3 types of coins:
Uncirculated, or mint state coins. These are also known as business strikes, the kind of coins being used throughout circulation (circulation is being used for money, spending it, having it in your pocket, etc) but showing no signs of ever being used in circulation (scratches, bagmarks, hairlines, etc). The dies and planchets which they were struck were the ordinary quality of the coins used for circulation, generally collector quality coins have higher quality, and therefore more quality dies and planchets.
Proof quality coins: These coins are the highest quality coins made by the mint, presentation quality, struck on perfect flawless planchets with highly polished dies, and struck at a slower rate ,as well as striking the coin with multiple impressions, many times, to get the best relief and image on the coin, as well as the best strike on the coin. The term proof in numismatic lingo does not refer to the condition of the coins, but rather the process by which they were minted. In earlier times, proofs were made often as gifts for important people, even people of head of state. Today, the mint produces these for collectors only. And the price certainly reflects this, a 1/10 oz American eagle .916 fine (22k) gold coin costs about 90 dollars from the mint. The bullion value, also known as the AGW (actual gold weight) or intrinsic value of this coin is around 50 to 60 dollars. However, it does come with mint packaging in a nice case, so the extra 30 or 40 dollars is probably just from the case it was put in, as well as the extreme quality of the coin! Proof coins possess a deep mirror effect, you can see your reflection in them, and on silver coins, this is called 'black and whites' or cameo effect, contrasting the black deep mirror background with the relief devices on the coin which are white.
Circulated coins have undergone wear however slight, and therefore are not deemed uncirculated (uncirclated means the coin has no wear) . The wear comes from mishandling or from circulation. They can range from a condition of the lowest grade; poor, a grade that barely can identify the coin and what type it is, to AU, about uncirculated, right on the borderline of being a mint state or uncirculated condition coin. Business strike coins and proof coins become circulated coins if they show any wear. Circulated proofs are said to be impaired and still hold the term 'proof' as their grade. Edited by OldGoldKing
10/18/2005 6:58 pm
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
Kevin, first to answer your question: PCGS price guides are very inflated. Your best bet to find the true value of a coin is to search Heritage and ebay for prices realized, in my opinion. Here is the best link I know of for ancients: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/National Dealer and Swamper Bob are great resources for counterfeits. Hope this helps you out. |
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Valued Member
 United States
106 Posts |
National Dealer and Swamper Bob
are those on that link?
Thanks
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
No, they are both members of this forum. The link is in response to your request for a link to ancients.
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Susanlynn9
No, they are both members of this forum. The link is in response to your request for a link to ancients.
I need to find the the art of coin making, the methods used, and what the symbols on the coin means.. I have a few links already. Just trying to collalaborate all this information |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Try a Google search for coin making methods. I did this and there are links for British coins and Chinese cash coins on the first page. I'm sure you will find many more on the additional pages.
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
Everyone, here's my essay. I am updating it constantly.Needs to be 12 pages 2 of them can have pictures Afterwards, 10 pages total of written text Can relate to: Anything about coin art 1) The minting of coins, and how the process has changed 2) What the art (symbols, etc. like the American eagle) represent in different countries, including the US 3) How ancient coins were made, what the designs on the coins mean 4) The art of incuse design coins (i.e the Indian head) 5) How saint gaudens wanted greek coinage to be on US coins6) talk about the screwpress 7) have an introduction; conclusion 8) grading coins 9) toning Heres the essay: October, 11, 2005 The Art Of Coin Making, coin design, and what the symbols on the coins represent, and the art of coin grading. Making coins, and the study of coins (numismatics) are not an exact science. Both, however, take art. It takes engravers and designers to carve the designs on a coin mold, how they want the designs to be. These are very skilled artists. Grading a coin has many factors involved, and it is a science and art to be able to grade a coin 'correctly". Many people cannot grade coins correctly, or want a professional to grade them to reinforce their value (Coins value is based on the grade, or how good of condition the coin is in) so they send them into third party grading services. There are more than 3, but the first three are considered the best. From 1st best to 3rd best, most people regard it as follows: PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. I put correctly in parenthesis because grading is a science and an art, but it also is largely subjective opinion. However, just as there are good grading services, there are also ones that are not reliable and not reputable. Anything but the top three, as a general rule, is not reputable. Here are some factors that effect coin grading: 1) Wear vs. Incomplete striking Wear is wear of the coins condition. Through circulation, or when coins are put out to the public to spend, eventually, the coins are worn due from friction. Each time you handle a coin, plop it into a soda machine, or drop it, microscopic pieces of metal on the coin wear off. Through decades of the coins lifespan, the coin is worn down, the details on the coin get 'smeared', and this is called wear. The more coin the wear has, the lower the condition. Coins from before 1964 generally have an significant amount of wear. Coins, of course, since they are metal, last much longer than paper bills. A dollar bill will only last a few months then is no longer fit for circulation. Now coins last many decades before they are worn out completely. The more wear a coin has, the lower its grade, or condition. Lets do an example. Take a coin from 1990, generally a coin this recent will have little wear. Of course it will probably have many scratches on it, called hairlines and, scratches are called bag marks, and it is caused this because what happens to a coin when its in a mint bag, the coins get scratched up.
Edited by OldGoldKing
10/12/2005 6:38 pm
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Kevin, you are more than welcome to post it here in the forum. We have a section for member articles and, when it's complete, it can be posted there. The only thing I ask is that, as you make revisions, please continue to edit your original post as the thread will get way too long otherwise.
I look forward to reading it.
In the essay above, I'm assuming that's your introduction to your paper. If so, it is fine. Make sure that you back up all statements in that paragraph with facts. For the most part, every sentence in your introduction can be used to construct a paragraph in your paper.
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Susanlynn9
Kevin, you are more than welcome to post it here in the forum. We have a section for member articles and, when it's complete, it can be posted there. The only thing I ask is that, as you make revisions, please continue to edit your original post as the thread will get way too long otherwise.
I look forward to reading it.
In the essay above, I'm assuming that's your introduction to your paper. If so, it is fine. Make sure that you back up all statements in that paragraph with facts. For the most part, every sentence in your introduction can be used to construct a paragraph in your paper.
Susan, I dont' know where to post the article. So I will edit it here. I added more just now. Going to edit the above post of mine. Thanks |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3730 Posts |
Kevin:
I don't mean to stray too far from numismatics, but having been a teacher for 35 years I just wanted to let you know that I think your accomplishments are exceptional.
Keep up the good work.
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Burke
Kevin:
I don't mean to stray too far from numismatics, but having been a teacher for 35 years I just wanted to let you know that I think your accomplishments are exceptional.
Keep up the good work.
Jee, well, thank you. I wrote an essay hoping to get into NASA as a young person for study, my grandma said it was good. Apparently it wasn't good enough. I passed the writing aims test but even though I am a very good reader I didnt pass the reading test. I just have some trouble with reading comphresenion. What did you think was exceptional? My essay? I dont' know how I got good grades but it was alot of stress. Right now I'm studying mathematics on my own so I can pass the math AIMs. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3730 Posts |
You ask what I think is exceptional.
My Goodness! Where to start.
Here's a quote from your earlier post:
"I am 17, my name is Kevin. I grew up in California, now live in arizona. I have a profound memory, I can remember my first day of kindergarden, and my first days I collected coins. I have gotten nothing but helpful advice here, be it warm, or constructive. I'm also interested in learning multiple languages, french, spanish, japanese especially etc. I am also interested into calculus, and higher math levels. I have Calculus For Dummies, and vector calculus from another author. Before high school, my math was horrible. I've learned myself that you can do anything you set your mind to with alot of persistance and determination. In high school, I got all A's in math and science, and my science grade was for awhile at 112%, the highest grade out of all 6 periods of students. I decided I wanted to be an engineer in astrophysics, or quantum physics, or just a physcist. I have gotten alot of support from my grandpa who is an investor/engineer."
I have had some exceptional students, who were really interested in learning, but I would have to say that if you had been one of my students, you certainly would have ranked in the top 5 percent, based on the little I have learned about you.
Good luck in the future. I'm sure you will succeed at whatever you try.
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Valued Member
United States
106 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Burke
You ask what I think is exceptional.
My Goodness! Where to start.
Here's a quote from your earlier post:
"I am 17, my name is Kevin. I grew up in California, now live in arizona. I have a profound memory, I can remember my first day of kindergarden, and my first days I collected coins. I have gotten nothing but helpful advice here, be it warm, or constructive. I'm also interested in learning multiple languages, french, spanish, japanese especially etc. I am also interested into calculus, and higher math levels. I have Calculus For Dummies, and vector calculus from another author. Before high school, my math was horrible. I've learned myself that you can do anything you set your mind to with alot of persistance and determination. In high school, I got all A's in math and science, and my science grade was for awhile at 112%, the highest grade out of all 6 periods of students. I decided I wanted to be an engineer in astrophysics, or quantum physics, or just a physcist. I have gotten alot of support from my grandpa who is an investor/engineer."
I have had some exceptional students, who were really interested in learning, but I would have to say that if you had been one of my students, you certainly would have ranked in the top 5 percent, based on the little I have learned about you.
Good luck in the future. I'm sure you will succeed at whatever you try.
Thank you..I'd either want to be a pilot or engineer or physcist. I will try to be a commercial pilot first but it will be difficult. Mainly because I have some mental illness problems and you have to pass 2 things: 1) A psycology test 2) And you have to prove that you can work very well under stress. You have to because you have like 200 passengers whos life is in your hand. I can't act well under stress.. and I probably couldnt past the pscyhology test. In fact, I bet I'd go through and get the degree after all the hard work just to be turned down, as I have a mental illness and I doubt they would let me work with that.. If I couldn't do that I would try to fly private aircraft. But one thing I couldn't do is deal with aviation on where you don't fly. (Mechanic, air traffic control, etc) I just want a job where I can fly. I will probably want to be both a engineer in eletricial engineering on gaming systems or advanced technologys as well. This is also the first compliment I've gotten..for along time. Everyone on the other forums (and Im' sure some people on this forum) consider me a 'troll' and think I don't care about learning about numismatics. They would be very wrong.I guess this is why I am no longer welcome on the other forum I loved so much.. I Just have to learn to not ask questions as much as I do..good lord I could just find the answers by google or reading about them. I just want to know..everything. When I am old I hope to know more than the average person, I hope to read books my whole life and learn about all I can about life. That way I would know alot more and could teach my kids (if I have any) more. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
GCL, without getting too "preachy" (I don't like being preached at and I don't like to do it myself), I think you'll find there's a certain amount of stress in whatever profession you choose. I also don't like stress, don't respond well to it, but over the years have learned to cope with it in my dual careers as a wildlife biologist and US Army Signal Corps Officer. A lot of stress, or maybe most of it is caused by circumstances over which you may not have control, particularly by the people with and for whom you work. When you deal with egos, personalities, and personal politics, stress is the result. Unfortunately, there are few professions in which one does not have to work with others much or most of the time. I thought working out of doors in wilderness areas as a wildlife biologist would be relatively stress free, but my bosses proved this not to be true; however, fortunately, they usually stayed back at the office while I was out communing with nature, so there were definitely compensatory aspects. Working for one's self is a possible solution, but then there are the stresses of providing for a family, meeting deadlines, and doing the job right. Except for me, my whole family is (or were) engineers and their stress levels ranged from relatively low to extremely high, the variances dependent upon the people with whom they worked, not the job itself. Since stress is part of everyday life, I might recommend you choose a profession in which you are interested and will give you job satisfaction rather than will provide the least amount of stress. With your talents, you will have many choices, an advantage not shared by many.
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Replies: 17 / Views: 2,514 |
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Posted 10/05/2005 01:39 am
