Neat Counterfeit Find

I'm pretty sure it's fake, too. Swamperbob, our resident counterfeit expert, could probably date it for you.

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...it appears to be iron or even copper underneath...

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There's a simple test you can do here... does it stick to a magnet? If it does, it's iron or steel cored.

Thanks Bob... Your knowledge on this topic far exceeds mine! I appreciate the input and will post other coutnerfeits as I find them. The 2 Reales I bought seems to be a legit coin and the other 8 reales, which I will pick up next week appears to be genuine also. It has a nice chop mark on it so it's easy to see the core. Thanks again!
Todd

I too would like to see the chopmarked coin. There are a few counterfeit varieties (like a 1769 Mo 8R) that are most easily identified by their distinctive chop marks.

Not all chopped coins are real.

Well, a real 8R from Mexico City dated 1797 weighed just a shade over 27 grams theoretically. A weight of 27.0674 grams was standard, but there was no one except the mint that could weigh to that level of accuracy. A worn copy (nearly totally flat) reduced to a slug should weigh aboyt 24-25 grams. So your coin at 21.6 grams was likely about 24-25 grams brand new. That is about standard for counterfeits of the period but would be too light for a Birmingham. The Birmingham counterfeits made as part of the Government effort to destabilize Spain's ecconomy were very close to the correct weight. They were made thicker than real 8Rs and slightly larger in diameter to get the correct weight.

What you have then is one made after the project was discovered and likely made without government help. They are still very scarce and sought after by counterfeit collectors. The coin would definitely bring bids in the $50 range or higher on ebay.

The 2R is interesting. It looks like it was made into a pin at one time and then after the connector was removed it appears to have gone back into circulation. It is from Guatemala. The mint mark NG stands for Nueva Guatemala. This is the KM 62 a scarcer three year type because it uses a bust of Charles IIII and a legend of Ferdin VII. The new King Ferdinand did not have an official protrait for some time (blame politics and turmoil) but instead of making up a "fantasy" portrait like Mexico did - Guatemala kept using the old King's picture. It has a catalog value of $20 in VG - but try to get one for that price! The weight of 6 grams is not too bad at all - even with the addition of a bit of solder. A brand new one had a theoretical weight of 6.7668 grams but 2R coins were not manufactured to the same tolerances as 8Rs in many of the colonial mints.

Based on these two coins, I am looking forward to the third. I also have a question. Does this dealer have any Cap and Ray Mexican coins? I am always interested in buying new counterfeit material.

SwamperBob, I noticed you are from NC, as I am. Was just wondering if you are going to be at the Carolina Coin Show on the 12th or 13th. I'll be there and could bring the 8 and 2 Reale for you to look at in person. Let me know!
Todd

We are down here in Salisbury NC right in the middle of Charlotte and Winston Salem on I-85. We SHOULD be coming up there on Staurday but I do not know the time yet. I'll let you know before the show when and where we will be. Thanks for the tip on the books. I'll go do some internet searching and see if I can find some of these. Did Riddell ever release how many Reales the US Mint took in and melted down? Do many collector's know this because I sure didn't. IT would seem that with this knowledge the prices would go up do to low surviving numbers of the coins. Most reales I have seen ahve been reasonably priced, in my book. Thanks!
Todd

Todd - When you are in the area please give me a call. Send me an email via the forum and we can exchange numbers. Edited by tights24 to remove personal phone numbers..
Riddell only makes one reference to the numbers of coins melted. It is the introduction to the section on the War of Independence issues. Riddell seems to particularly dislike these "rude" coins because even the original issues varied in value considerably and many in circulation were "base and intentional counterfeits."

Here is the quote. "The coins which follow, were manufactured in the territory of Mexico, from the year 1810 to 1822, during the period of the Revolutionary War with Spain, which resulted in the Independence of Mexico. Most of them are very rudely made, and most of them bear the royal effigy, arms, or Legend of Ferd. VII., though necessarily made without his authority. Those dollars which I have designated Hispano-Mexican, the Hammered, and also the Vargas Dollars, are still very abundant in this part of the world, (New Orleans,) being usually admixed to the extent of 4 or 5 per cent in all large lots of Mexican Dollars. About $50,000 of them per annum, arrive at the New Orleans mint for re-coinage."

I read the total of 50,000 coins per year as being the War Time issues covered by this section - not the total melt. So therefore if 4 to 5% of the large lots were War issues - the mint was melting between 1,000,000 and 1,250,000 Mexican 8R coins per year.

That seems to be a good estimate to me since the US had no silver resources in 1839-1844. The western US silver mines were still owned by Mexico at this point. Silver for the manufacture of US coins was derived by melting worn coins taken from circulation by banks. Riddell estimated elsewhere in his book that 9 out of 10 coins in circulation in the US were Spanish American or Mexican.

I did some quick research on mint numbers for New Orleans and here are the numbers.

5 cents 10 cents 25 cents 50 cents 8R Equiv.

1839 1,034,039 1,323,000 0 178,976 273,490
1840 935,000 1,175,000 425,200 855,100 698,100
1841 815,000 2,007,500 452,000 401,000 595,750
1842 220,000 2,020,000 769,000 957,000 1,652,750
1843 0 150,000 968,000 2,268,000 1,391,000
1844 220,000 0 740,000 2,005,000 1,198,500

If you look at these numbers and recall that Riddell wrote his text in 1844 - it appears that 1 to 1.25 million 8R coins is a fairly accurate estimate for 1844. In fact if you accept his estimate of 9 of 10 coins being Mexican then you get essentially an exact match. Ninety percent of the total mintage of $1,198,500 is $1,078,650.

One of the reasons I started collecting Mexican 8Rs in the first place was the fact that an old coin dealer in Massachusetts told me in 1957 that early US coins were made from melted Mexican coins. That was about the same time that I found out that the average US citizen (before the Civil War) used more Mexican silver coins than US coins. I recall that the reason I raised these questions in the first place was because I found some old family papers in the attic of my great uncle's house that included the original receipts for the construction of the building. All of the bills and receipts were stated in SPANISH MILLED DOLLARS! The house was built in 1812. So why did they use Spanish Milled Dollars in Middleborough, Mass in 1812?

I guess I was not a typical 10 year old because I really had to ask alot of folks before I got an answer and that answer in turn has led to a life long obsession with 8R coins - especially the counterfeits. The majority of Mexican Counterfeit 8Rs actually originated outside Mexico and many were made in the US. New England in particular having large silver manufacturing facilities was a source of many of these counterfeits.

So my logic as a new coin collector was - What could be a more typically American coin to collect than Counterfeit Mexican 8Rs?


Todd - just read your last note - Carl Clegg is a great resource for the Columnario types. He is extremely familiar with the minutia of the series. These coins are so complex that it is best to focus on one series. I really consider myself to be expert in only the Cap and Ray 8R series. For the rest of the 8R types I am only average.