When Coins Get Better With Age. - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 10 / Views: 956
national dealer Pillar of the Community United States 2724 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 10:23 am CoinWorld recently ran an article about the re-grading of the 1974 Aluminum Cent. This coin was originally certified by ICG AU-58. The coin has been crossed over to PCGS as an MS-62. Beth Deisher, editor of CoinWorld wrote an editorial about this "upgrade" and questioned whether ICG missed the mark, or if PCGS saw rarity in the grade. ICG has made it perfectly clear that their graders were unanimous in the AU-58 grade. Beth, states that this could be a great opportunity to "study" how the differences in grading occur. So how does a coin get better with age? This is not the first time that a coin has gotten better over the years. Many rare coins have crossed the barrier from circulated to uncirculated, and even a few examples of going from circulation strike to proof. It is pretty common knowledge among collectors that ICG are pretty "loose" when it comes to modern grading. So it begs to question, did rarity play a factor in the grading process? The 1974 Aluminum Cent is by far and large a "rare" coin with questionable legality. In 2000, many dealers spoke publicly that such a coin on the open market would fetch six figures easily. Today, this coin would easily be in the mid-six figures. So does the MS-62 grade make any difference? David Hall, President of PCGS said in the article that PCGS graders saw no signs of circulation. Of course, most collectors realize that grading standards change, and they are based soley on the market. However, even as the ANA officially endorses "market" grading, there should be a standard. Moving a point or two is understandable, but moving from About Uncirculated to Uncirculated should for all intents and purposes be impossible. Either the coin has circulation wear or it doesn't. Who knows how such things happen or why, but there are two things about this particular coin that stand out in my mind. ICG's history of being a little loose in "modern" grading and the publicly stated "Presidential review" at PCGS. Since "GRADE" has absolutely NO impact on this particular coins value, why the need for re-certification? Could the answer lie in the question? Report this Post to the Staff

Susanlynn9 Forum Mom United States 5877 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 10:58 am This is a very interesting subject with a number of important aspects touched upon. Since the legality of the aluminum cent is already questionable, grading it at all was controversial to start with. To have the grade increase upon resubmission is yet another questionable factor. ICG obviously saw something that kept this coin from being considered MS, yet the experienced graders at PCGS did not see this. Taking into account that ICG has been known for overgrading modern coins, this leads me to believe that the presidential review process at PCGS lies at the bottom of the MS grade now assigned to it. Obviously this is only speculation and opinion on my part, but it seems like sound reasoning to me. If this is the case, it does not promote a good reputation for PCGS in my eyes. This is just my opinion, but it doesn't seem like it takes a great leap of logic to figure this one out. Report this Post to the Staff
SFDukie Pillar of the Community United States 980 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 11:38 am Obviously "opinions may vary". But wear is wear. The only mitigating factors here are with a one of a kind coin in a metal not used in US coinage-wear may appear differently than on bronze cents does. But, IMO the whole concept of presidential review is questionable. If three graders agree independently of each other, without knowing the grade the others assigned-the grade is likely correct-regardless of Mr. Hall's opinion. He is likely the most respected man in modern numismatics, but that doesn't make his opinions pronouncements from above. PR is yet anoither way the grading game is skewed towards the big boys and against the individual collector. And I loathe market grading-an MS 65 should be the same in a given series-period. The market will determine the coin cost at any rate-market grading just confuses things and will obviously change over time. Don Report this Post to the Staff
catman Rest in Peace United States 954 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 11:46 am "Moving a point or two is understandable" ND Quote. This is my whole objection to Market Value Grading. How can a coin change grades once it has been graded unless someone made an error the first time. If grading changes that would mean you would have to have all the coins in your collection re-graded each time the market changed, currently about every 5 years or less,. This would sure keep the grading companies in business but do nothing for the collector. catman Report this Post to the Staff
Susanlynn9 Forum Mom United States 5877 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 12:06 pm I still maintain that the values could be increased without changing the grade. Grade and value are two different things. I don't know why this seems to be such a difficult concept in the numismatic community. Report this Post to the Staff
national dealer Pillar of the Community United States 2724 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 1:05 pm quote: Originally posted by catman How can a coin change grades once it has been graded unless someone made an error the first time. This is actually pretty easy. There are 3 independent graders, if two look at a coin and give it a number (let's use AU-50) and the third says AU-53, the coin will be certified and encapsulated at AU-50. Now if you resubmit this coin and two think it is AU-53 and the third thinks AU-50 it could be recertified as AU-53. In this type case, and only this type case, can a coin be moved. The current point system is very limited, yet covers a large area. At some point, technical grading will have to come into the hobby. Early American Coppers (EAC) use this form of grading with GREAT success. So by their example, I know that someone is willing to accept strict guidelines. It will take the hobby as a whole to "get sick" with market grading before change can take place. In the meantime, NGC and Anacs seem to be a good alternative. Report this Post to the Staff
national dealer Pillar of the Community United States 2724 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 1:08 pm quote: Originally posted by SFDukie others assigned-the grade is likely correct-regardless of Mr. Bower's opinion David Hall is the president of PCGS and has the "presidential review" authority. Report this Post to the Staff
Stujoe Valued Member United States 421 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 6:39 pm Market grading the only 1974 AL Lincoln Cent on the market is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard of if that is what was done. How can you Market Grade something that is the market? Is it in some way better or worse than all the rest of the 1974 AL Lincoln cents on the market? Report this Post to the Staff
Morgan Fred Rest in Peace United States 2684 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 7:24 pm I am not sure either grading company can state with a high degree of certainty whether this unique coin is circulated or uncirculated. The only means by which circulation can be detected is by wear (all other circulation signs such as rim marks presumed absent). And only by comparison with an identical coin known to be uncirculated can the amount of wear be measured. Because this coin is unique and given that bronze and aluminum both strike and wear differently, what was used as the benchmark? It appears the difference between the slider AU-58 grade and the new MS-62 grade is so slight in this particular coin as to be unmeasurable and, indeed, irrelevant. As ND said (in paraphrase), "Why did they bother?". Perhaps someone needed a little ego-stroking? Report this Post to the Staff
longnine009 Pillar of the Community United States 1247 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 9:15 pm Thanks ND. I was in good mood until you got me started on this. Real market grading can only exist in technical grading system. There are auctions from the past, long before the Great Holy Fathers gave us 11 unc grades, where two coins of same date and same technical grade got vastly different prices realized. One got higher prices because bidders saw a market factor such as color or better surfaces that they all liked and bid it up. I know it must sound incredible that coin collectors could have actually decided all by themselves what they like and how much they'd be willing to pay for it. How did they ever do such things without their big Daddies? Hey, does anyone want to know another secret? Back when free enterprise was really free grocers used to add numbers on a paper bag with a pencil.Yes, yes with only a pencil and some grey matter. No calculator, no scanner and no Corporate slobs making 25 million a year for their "talent." What is called market grading today cannot be market grading. Professional graders appear, to me at least, to be pretty rational, logical and unemotional. Isn't that one of their main selling points? We are disinterested in the outcome therefore we are more objective? I believe those attributes are perfect for technical grading but it cannot be so for apprehending what market factors carry how much weight with collectors. What coin collectors like is anything but rational, logical or unemotional. You cannot logically, rationally, and unemotionally quantify WHIMSICAL. It ain't going to happen. What is called "market" grading right now is simply commodified grading. That's all it will ever be! Report this Post to the Staff
Stujoe Valued Member United States 421 Posts	Posted 10/11/2005 9:23 pm quote: Originally posted by longnine009 Thanks ND. I was in good mood until you got me started on this. Real market grading can only exist in technical grading system. There are auctions from the past, long before the Great Holy Fathers gave us 11 unc grades, where two coins of same date and same technical grade got vastly different prices realized. One got higher prices because bidders saw a market factor such as color or better surfaces that they all liked and bid it up. I know it must sound incredible that coin collectors could have actually decided all by themselves what they like and how much they'd be willing to pay for it. How did they ever do such things without their big Daddies? Hey, does anyone want to know another secret? Back when free enterprise was really free grocers used to add numbers on a paper bag with a pencil.Yes, yes with only a pencil and some grey matter. No calculator, no scanner and no Corporate slobs making 25 million a year for their "talent." I was going to post something similar and try to work in the phrase The Dumbing Down of Numismatics. Report this Post to the Staff
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