Rare Mexican 8R Coin

Numismat - Now that is a bargain.

Without the hole, it would be easily a $750 coin. With the hole?

The die matrix is correct and there are no features that bother me. Based on the photo alone, I would say it is real.

Two questions - just to close two loop-holes.

1. Have you checked the edge design? Are there 2 overlaps of IDENTICAL length positioned EXACTLY 180 degrees apart. For anyone not familiar with Mexican 8Rs the planchets were edged in a parallel die edging mill and the two halves of the edge were applied with different dies at the same time.

Here is a sketch to illustrate the point. It was produced for colonial edges but the same apparatus was used for the Republican edge. So look for overlapping crescents with circular points between the segments. Sine these are Mexico City edge dies the pattern is well known. Can you send photos of the edge?

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2. The second question is a follow-up on the comment you made that the coin weighs 27 grams. How accurate is that measurement made? To be real this coin MUST weigh UNDER 27.0 grams because of the hole. Based on measurements I just made on the picture provided - the hole is about 1/18th the diameter of the coin and there is no appreciable retention of metal around the hole. If you do the math and assume a uniform thickness - there is a minimal loss of metal of 0.08 grams. If you add that to wear losses of at least 0.03 grams - the coin should weigh 26.9 grams on a 1/10th gram scale and no more. There were numerous overweight forgeries of 8Rs produced in the 1890s when silver prices fell on world markets and the Chinese were still acccepting 8Rs at face value for payments. It is possible but highly unlikely that an 1844 GC was copied, but you never know. We do know that the process used ca 1890 started with a real coin and that dies were created by a mechanical process. These dies were so well made that they often fooled bankers and collectors. The micro O silver dollars just unmasked as period forgeries were made using this process.

But all that said, I have never encountered a counterfeit of this date and I have been hunting for counterfeit Cap and Ray coins since about 1960. There are no known contemporary counterfeits of any GC mint 8R and all modern GC mint forgeries are cast copies. So even if you have a "Boston" style forgery from the 1890s - you would have a VERY RARE counterfeit worth about as much as a real 1844 GC would be anyway.

Interesting - the weight is perfect but the edge is very odd.

In most cases, both halves are cut to equal depth. You appear to have captured one of the overlaps - located in the area of the mint mark and date. The other lap should occur beyond the 20 Gs just past where the edge is nearly blank. I assume there is no trace of this second lap?

I suspect that the loss of the edge design must be post strike damage because if one die was actually worn to blank or nearly blank that lack of detail would go right up to the lap and not just occur starting partially along the circumference.

The effect of a hole can be significant - the minimum fair downgrade is one full grade. Dealers buying a coin always maximize the effect but collectors often see them in the opposite light.

I would estimate the $ 300 is conservative.

I am still slightly bothered by the part of the edge design that is missing, but the portion that is present appears to use the correct Mo style edging die.

Personally, I do not like the repaired coins, but when they are done well they can certainly add considerable value. The position of this hole would make repair difficult but not impossible. The resulting coin should be slabbed afterward to preclude it being sold raw as an intact coin. I have seen far too many repaired coins sold as originals and that fraud is often very difficult to detect.

Numismat I was not implying that you would sell it without a warning. It is just that we all will die sometime and our heirs might not understand or care. At least if a repaired coin is slabbed - they might not take the effort to crack it out. That is about the best that can be done (short of leaving the hole where it is).

I of course face a similar but more serious problem with the disposal of my core collection of several thousand counterfeit coins after I die. Right now, I have left instructions that my counterfeit collection must be kept intact and not broken up or sold. I want it to go to a safe museum setting where it could provide for serious research and where at the same time I could get Tax benefits for my heirs. But as of right now I am up in the air as to where that should be. Originally I had listed the ANA, but I am concerned about their deaquisition policies especially where it comes to foreign material that the governors might not see as central to their interests.

All too often, we fail to think at all past the date of our own demise.