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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,301 |
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Moderator
 United States
34428 Posts |
Hi. Let me start by telling you what I know about this half groshen from Pommerania. It was sold to me as a Levinson I-320 by a reputable dealer. The diameter is 21 mm and the mass is 0.9 g. The obverse legend seems to be "MON-ETA-N-OVA-AM-9&", where instead of an ampersand, you can see that the last character is the gothic 4 (basically an 8 with the bottom part of that character missing). The reverse legend seems to be "DUX-BVGSLAVS-STETTIN". Here is where I am confused: the size of the coin and reverse legend seem to indicate Levinson I-289b, while the obverse legend (and the seller) indicates that I have I-320. In his description of the I-289b, Levinson says that it was a commemorative coin struck in 1498, but the hand sketch of the coin clearly shows the date as being "92" (and the coin is listed under 1492. I have done a web search and only found one I-289b for sale in a previous auction. That image isn't sufficient for me to tell whether the last number in the date is a 2, an 8, or a gothic 4. According to Levinson, the I-320 should be slightly smaller in diameter and is shown with a legend ("BVGSLVS-DG-DUX-STETIN") that clearly is not a match for this coin. The mass is slightly low for either type, although I believe within the natural variation of these early coins. Could this be a variation not listed in Levinson's "The Early Dated Coins of Europe 1234-1500"? Anyone out there have a real Levinson I-289b for which they could provide images (I recognize that these are pretty rare)? Any ideas from the resident medieval experts here? Is is a Lev I-320, I-289b, or an unlisted coin? Thanks!   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Moderator
  United States
34428 Posts |
Just to close the loop on this thread, I have emailed my question to Robert A. Levinson (the author of the book "The Early Dated Coins of Europe 1234-1500"), and he had this to say:
"I have looked at the coin and my suspicion I think is confirmed. The obverse die has been engraved with the title before the name of the Duke. This is not uncommon where there are many dies to a particular coin. The 1494 is the most common of the schillings so there were probably a number of dies. However I have never seen your variety before and as such it is definitely a rare variety and my congratulations to you." I recognize that the Coin Community forum can't help me with all of my coin-related questions, but I hope to have better success with some of my other questions as well as add to the overall knowledge base here. Thanks!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Good to read that you got your answer and that confirms the rarity of your coin. It's always nice when the specialists who literally wrote the book on esoteric topics are willing to assist. I recall Fred B. Shore ("Parthian Coins and History: Ten Dragons Against Rome") assisting me via email with a question about a coin I was researching years ago, and I've had some email correspondence with Wayne Sayles of the "Ancient Coin Collecting" series in the past. I always appreciate when these specialists are willing to take the time to help us amateurs.
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Valued Member
76 Posts |
I have an I-320 that is listed in Bob's book . It also has different legend on both obverse and reverse. It for the most part matches up with Bob's description. On Pg. 15 of his book he explains on how the coins are catalogued.
To spence, Do you collect Early Dated coins? I have for several years. Please contact me on this topic.
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Moderator
  United States
34428 Posts |
@Louie, ok very interesting. What is the inscription on your I-320. Can you please share a pic?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Valued Member
76 Posts |
On the Obv.: DUX-BUGSLAUS-STETTIN Rev.: MON-ETAN- OVA-D-AM9& (Gothic4)
At this time I do not have Pics. What other pre-1500 dated coins do you have?
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Moderator
  United States
34428 Posts |
@louie, thank you for the interest in my collection. I appologize up front because I'm going to be a little coy with my answer. I'm not ready to share my entire collection with the forum or you, having just joined here a couple months ago. I'm sure that you are a standup guy and just expressing genuine interest in comparing our notes on coin collecting early dated coins. As I get more comfotable here, I will continue to share with the whole group. Again, I'm sorry that I am unwilling to be more forthright--its not like youn are asking for the combo to my safe, but still I'd rather take things slowly.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Valued Member
76 Posts |
I have over 160 different coins that are listed in Bob's book. Since it is all about the date of the coin that is where I look first. A nice clear date is important, then the rest of the coin. Most but not all of them are F-Vf . At this time, I can not provide pics, I hope to do so later. The dates start with the 1374 Aachen piece and go forward. At this time I only have 10 gold pieces but hope to add in the future. Let me know if I can be of any help. It is so rare to find someone with similar interests, that is one reason for my enthusiasm. Have a good day and hope you find some neat additions!! Louie
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Moderator
  United States
34428 Posts |
@louie, ok yes that is pretty impressive. I share your passion, but imagine my collection to be a weak shadow of yours.
It has been my observation that there are multiple experts on this forum for Roman coins, Greek coins, Byzantine coins, Sasanian coins, cast Chinese cash, but only a few of us who seem to really focus on medieval Europe. Recently, I have started writing up and posting one of my coins per week. I've been trying to really dig in to some of the background. I'd invite you to do the same--perhaps you can take this as a challenge to do the same sort of periodic write-up?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5177 Posts |
Also for louie - do you happen to have anything from 1493? The "how far back can we go" thread had been stuck there for months (and at 1494 for more months previously). [EDIT: Though if you do, you might want to wait a day or two while the 1494 is posted (see below).]
While we're at it, spence might post the OP coin there as well (they're accepting 1494 while there's no 1493 posted yet).
...On my own end, I'm very interested in early dated coins, and I'd love to collect them, but to be honest I've never really seen any on sale, and I probably wouldn't have that kind of money anyway. The three oldest dated coins in my collection are from 1517, 1521 and 1597 (and the 1597 isn't even an AD date, but a conversion from another calendar).
Edited by january1may 03/02/2016 07:38 am
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Moderator
  United States
34428 Posts |
@january1may, ok very interesting. I hadn't stumbled upon that particular thread here on CCF but will search for it now. I should be able to help some. vcoins has a few dealers of this stuff, but I'm not sure about shipping to your neck of the woods. maybe easier with European dealers?
Hmm, it looks like the thread is "Walking back in time from 1600 to antiquity by decade", but that has gone way past the 1400s and ended in mid-2015. Is there maybe another one that I didn't find?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
Edited by Spence 03/02/2016 9:39 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5177 Posts |
It's literally named "How Far Back Can We Go", and it's in the Main Coin Forum. (There are actually three of them - you need the First Edition, though you'd probably be able to participate in the Second Edition too.)
The "walking back by decade" thread should also benefit from a second edition, but I'm not sure who would start it (nobody's seen Medieval in about a year; I've no idea what happened to that extremely - if briefly - active member, except that if they were known to be dead it would've said so on the account). There's all sorts of dated coins in antiquity, as long as you don't care what calendar they're in; there's been a thread for dated coins of the first century AD, and most of the years had been successfully posted on it. It's the medieval period that's a problem (especially early medieval, before the Arabic dated coins pick up).
On the "help some" thing... I'm sure there are a lot of online dealers, even nearby, who would ship stuff to me if I only pay enough. (Especially since the big bunch of cheap early 16th century coins is Hungarian and Lithuanian, which are both presumably much easier to get close to my country than close to the USA.) The problem is "if I pay enough" thing. I've pretty much never bought any coins online, because I can't figure out how to pay (I don't have a credit card, for one); and even if payment problems weren't that serious, there's the question of budget (I paid $15 each for the 1517 and 1521 coins, which is really bordering on the upper end of my budget, and I'd prefer even less if I'm intending to buy more than one or two coins for that price). So it pretty much all comes down to "still looking" (my current quest is to get an example of my country's oldest dated coin - which is the same type as my 1597 coin except the date is 1596).
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Moderator
  United States
34428 Posts |
Ok done. I've posted a 1493 from Mainz and will try to contribute to that thread as often as I can.
I totally understand the limitations of a budget. Deciding whether to buy multiple interesting coins or one really cool one is a conundrum with which I suspect we all struggle. When you finally get that 1596, please post a pic of it. I will be very interested to see it!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,301 |
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