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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,689 |
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Valued Member
United States
403 Posts |
I'm trying to develop my skills in MS coin grading and had a philosophical question. Immediately after a coin is struck at the mint, should it be considered MS-70? This would be before it got nicked or scratched by interacting with other coins in hoppers or bags. Does die state matter, or weakness of strike? I would like to think that all coins start out as MS-70, but the subjective aspect of eye appeal is sometimes in the MS 60-70 descriptions.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
724 Posts |
Most coins start at mint at MS63. MS65 is rare. MS70 is not existing for business strike.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19964 Posts |
No, not every coin starts at 70 due to strike issues and the dings they take during manufacturer. However, grading should start at 70 and then work down.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
No in a typical UNC bank roll, new from the mint, 2-5 will be MS-60, 5-15 will be MS-61, 25-40 will be MS-63, 5-8 will be MS-64 and 1-2 will be MS-65. 66+ are progressively more rare so perhaps 1 MS-66 every 10 rolls, 1 MS-67 every hundred, 1 MS-68 every thousand.
Edited by fenton
04/26/2016 08:09 am
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New Member
5 Posts |
It depends on the coin. Many modern proofs and commemoratives do. Take a look at the Dollar section of the ANA Grading guide for a chart listing some of the characteristics to look for on MS coins. |
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5176 Posts |
Your typical "new from the mint" coin would have already had some "damage" on the way between the mint and you (bags, whatever hoppers are, probably even rolls).
This is why business strikes in grades above MS-68 are said to be nonexistent (even so, a few had been found - I think for a while there was even one MS-70 graded business strike; can't recall of which type, or what happened to it later).
However, even if it was possible to take a coin between it leaving the presses and going to the minted coin bin (I don't think it's even physically possible, except perhaps by inserting a glove at the exact right spot very quickly, but whatever), it would probably still not be MS-70, because of strike quality (or, for that matter, hub and master die quality; with working dies, it depends on what the problem is, but, say, die overpolishing will probably also affect the grade if it's that high). With older coins, planchet flaws might also matter.
It is, in fact, traditionally assumed that every single coin that had not circulated, unless obviously damaged, is at least MS-60. That already leads to silly results with some weakly-struck coins (which can easily look very circulated without having any actual circulation; distinguishing one from the other is nearly an art for some types).
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
The question includes this: Quote:
This would be before it got nicked or scratched by interacting with other coins in hoppers or bags. |
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5176 Posts |
Quote:The question includes this: Quote:
This would be before it got nicked or scratched by interacting with other coins in hoppers or bags. Thus my reply: Quote:
However, even if it was possible to take a coin between it leaving the presses and going to the minted coin bin... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
Proof coins are definitely the exception. Most newly minted ones are MS-68 to MS-70 and they get a "white glove treatment" and rarely suffer from strike or worn die issues
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
So to answer the OP's question: No, but when speaking of modern coins "nearly all" are MS70 when the dies open. MS70 simply means "as fully struck". There are occasional die and planchet issues resulting in less than a full strike but those are the exception on anything struck in the last half century. Less than full strikes were much more common 19th and early 20th century.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1316 Posts |
An MS70 coin is flawless. To accomplish this, it would require the die, the planchet, and the strike to be flawless. Most business strikes aren't this precise, so most coins aren't a 70 when the die lifts up. As the mint is seeking efficiencies in both manufacture and cost, their QC standards don't require a 70 coin to be acceptable, unlike the the specially prepared proofs that have much higher QC standards. In the event it was flawless in leaving the press, then the coin would have to get through the machines, bags, rolls, etc without picking up another flaw, which is next to impossible, so MS70 coins are very rare. Odds are very stacked against them.
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New Member
5 Posts |
Quote:
So to answer the OP's question: No, but when speaking of modern coins "nearly all" are MS70 when the dies open. MS70 simply means "as fully struck". There are occasional die and planchet issues resulting in less than a full strike but those are the exception on anything struck in the last half century. Less than full strikes were much more common 19th and early 20th century. In theory, maybe; yet MS-70 by TPGS standards DOES NOT MEAN "as fully struck." Perhaps I am being too critical and consider Commemoratives and SE (that exist by the thousands as MS-70) mint state coins. If the OP wants us to consider the dimes, quarters, cents, etc. made to be circulated and spent in commerce then I'll concede that an MS-70 probably does not exist. However, I'll bet some can be found in the "vintage" silver mint sets. |
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Valued Member
 United States
403 Posts |
Thank you all for the detailed responses to a question that's more complicated than I first thought. Can't say that my grading skills are now improved, but I understand the issues better and that's a start.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts |
Very interesting post/question...I enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on this.
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Valued Member
United States
403 Posts |
After ruminations with your comments and further study, this is what I've internalized: Do all (business strike) coins start as MS-70? No. It is rather unlikely but not impossible (MS-69? Hmm). MS-70 is the ultimate grade with expectations of perfection including strike quality; it has no low or high ends (are there any, including proofs, with a CAC sticker?). At least for a few milliseconds after the dies open, a coin can approach perfection, and a few may achieve it, but it's downhill quickly as the nicks and scratches accumulate in the traps, conveyors, counters, and bagging processes at the mint. Before that, even with perfect luster and lack of abrasion or contact marks, the presence of planchet problems or graininess from worn dies or device weakness from a less-than-full strike would conspire against perfection. I understand that strict technical grading standards at TPGs for lower grades supposedly ignore strike issues, but as the ultimate grade, MS-70 must represent perfection.
This of course is hypothetical - it would be nice to think that a business strike MS-70 was possible, but I'm not aware of any. I'm trying to develop an understanding of where a coin starts out and how it evolves to attain its condition and grade. This is one angle of a complicated puzzle.
Thanks again for your comments!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Philosophically an interesting question. You would think the first coin out of a brand new die with a perfect planchet would be MS70 before it touches anything else. Everything is downhill from there.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,689 |
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Posted 04/26/2016 08:07 am
