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 Replies: 12 / Views: 2,308 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Today I was sent pictures of an 1762 Guatemala 8 Reales assayer P, and I was asked my opinion about the coin. The stated weight was 27 grams but that is rounded to the nearest gram. Is there any chance this one is genuine?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
It looks good to me, possibly sea salvaged. The spacing of ET IND REX is wide, but that's not unusual from what I've seen before.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Edited by realeswatcher
06/28/2016 01:43 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2668 Posts |
Copy. Because I have been studying these today on-line. Learned quite a bit and can see bad clues. Round up the usual suspects.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
The reverse shows the date as 1761, of course.
It shows many of the characteristics of the Guatemala design as described by Gilboy (separation between water, globes and crown; no imperial crown; missing abacus). My only example is from 1768 so I have very little in-hand experience with these. I see an inverted N in HISPAN that is not noted as a variant until 1768. Gilboy notes that up to 1762-63, the laurel leaves on the edge pointed in different directions but I think he's describing it as one of three variations. No break in the edge design is visible to me.
Based on these photos I would say it is possibly genuine, although I would want to see the two edge design joints to feel better about it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
Very good response. Really thoughtful replies. I agree that the 1761 GP with graffiti has been around the block so to speak. It has been in and out of encapsulation. It was the presence of this graffiti that got me looking at the coin in the first place. I knew I had seen that before. However, are these all the same coin? Has someone created a high quality pressure casting of the coin? I agree that the coin shown in all the Heritage archive pictures is the same coin. But is the coin I started this discussion with the same coin? I see differences. The most pronounced is found on the obverse (the side with the shield) - I noticed that the pictures I was sent seem to lack the adjustment marks on the upper right lion that are seen on all of the Heritage pictures. Also missing are the surface cracks in the field to the right of the shield.  This could be lighting or the field could have been smoothed, but I am very concerned that a pressure cast copy could now be in play. I also hate the edge detail but I do not know enough about the Guatemala mint to be sure of the design or even the quality of the edging mill to be 100% certain that is bad. I would not advise anyone to presume this is the same coin and I cautioned against bidding because of the suspicions. So is there any chance the coin genuine YES. However, I am NOT CERTAIN and I would not advise anyone to buy this coin before examining it in hand. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The recent appearance of multiple examples of the 1762 GP also has me concerned about pressure cast copies. The example shown here has the look of a more typical cast copy. The images are a bit vague and the color is mottled.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, the pictures of the 1761 coin that you provided were rather low-res and apparently completely blurred out the adjustments in the area of the upper R lion... However, on the original ebay listing I linked ( 371646563608), the adjustments are definitely there... and the seller's shield side pic also looks to be rather unfocused (compare it to his pillars side pic - note the graininess of the background). I think the kind of darkish toning on the coin is making photography difficult... I could be sold on said toning being somewhat "enhanced"... or being a slightly watery retoning over light wiping. Aside from that, there seem to be multiple small toning spots that confirm the listings all being for the same piece. This is the same piece coming and going several times (nothing unusual)... and the piece looks perfectly legit in terms of being genuine Guatemala regal output. ------ The 1762 is, I would think, unquestionably fake... I think this was the Guatemala date popping up every so often several years back, but don't recall seeing one recently. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
realswatcher I was not asked to review the ebay auction item - it was the photo in someone's hand which I reduced and attached. The pictures I was sent are copied at 2x of the size that I received in the small section I attached. That was the largest I could enlarge the image and maintain clarity. It was what I had to work with. I reduced the Heritage photo to match that size. The pictures I was sent are not the same as those in the ebay auction - which I would agree match the Heritage coin - so I still am concerned that it could possibly be a different coin. The features on the field and the lion are absolutely large enough to show. So unless it was your own auction and you sent the low quality pictures to the fellow who sent them to me - there is no way of being positive from photos alone. I also agree seeing the edge that the 1762 is a BAD forgery.
Edited by swamperbob
06/28/2016 7:27 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Aside from the timing of the whole thing... same toning spots!! See comp pic. All the same genuine coin, without any doubt. And if you're still curious how detail can magically blur/disappear in a digital image - check out some scanned copper sometime (probably was moreso with older scanners, but still...). RE: the fake 1762... The 2nd example I posted was stated as being 22.9g, whereas the ebay 1762 was 26.6g. Also, the ebay piece would appear to have some attempt at the tuliped edge... plus a concerted effort to impart artificial toning. So, all in all, a better iteration of the fake. Still, if you know Guatemala pillars, it's just not quite right.  Edited by realeswatcher
06/29/2016 01:19 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I have never seen detail of this magnitude disappear in a digital photograph in which I could see the level of detail on the balance of the picture. I have had issues with some scanners but not digital cameras.
It may be a genuine coin, but I do not see that as an obvious conclusion.
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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,308 |
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Posted 06/28/2016 01:34 am
