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Another Warring States Square Foot Spade Coin

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AnYangMan's Avatar
Netherlands
91 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2016  3:03 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

As the end of the first semester draws nearer, so do my final exams unfortunately, which means less time spent on coins, and more on maths. Anyway, I thought I should show one more square-foot spade from my, rather limited, collection:

Another-Warring-States-Square-Foot-Spade-Coin

Another small square foot spade of the Warring States period, this time issued by arguably my favourite state within this period, the State of Zhao. This kingdom has perhaps one of the most interesting monetary systems in the Warring Sates period, issuing anything from round coinage to straight knives and pointed spades. The Zhao state came into being after the Jin state, one of the major players during the preceding Spring and Autumn period and famous for being the most likely issuers of the hollow-head spades, fell apart in the 5th century BC. The coin reads "Xiang-Yuan", a city, now a county, within Shanxi province, located approximately 150 Km west Handan, the later capital of the Zhao state. Xiang Yuan was located on an important junction in the Zhang (He) river, on the southern border of the Zhao state. Because this river often formed part of the border between the Han/Wei state and the state of Zhao, the different towns and cities along the Zhang He were often fortified and well protected. Xiang-Yuan was such a walled city, as suggested by its name (the "Yuan" character literally translating into something like "a low/city wall").

This time, unfortunately, no interesting discussion on the reading of the spade; Both characters (Xiang-Yuan) are well documented, the latter even appearing on an early round coin issued by the state of Wei. There is however a neat little detail to the characters on my spade. Normally, the top-left component of the character on the right (remember to read from right to left, so "Xiang") is very triangular. My spade on the other hand, shows a variety where it is shaped more like a pentagon, having five distinct corners an edges. Note that this is not that rare; everything between a semi-circle and a triangle could and has been used for this component. Hartill only lists a single calligraphic variety (nr.3.403), as well as one with an inversed inscription; Coole lists many, but only one or two that come close to my variety. This spade is one of the more common ones within this series, Hartill giving it a rarity rating of 11 out of 16, comparable to the An-Yang spades (10/11). My coin measures 46 by 28 mm, and has a weight of 5.38 gram, quite average for this type.

Again, I presume this to be a genuine coin (sharp edges, correct thinness, good "patina", whatever is left of it), and it has been looked at by the experts on Zeno.ru. Nevertheless, should you find anything wrong with it, please tell me! Unfortunately, however, it has been harshly cleaned, especially to make the characters on the obverse stand out. But even on the reverse the previous owner removed some of the patina/corrosion, mainly on the shoulders. Yet, on the reverse, he left the rest of the patina intact. This is presumably because this series, specifically these Xiang-Yuan and several Late Yan-state spades, often shows characters/mintmarks on the reverse shoulders as well. Having such mintmarks often increases the value of the coin, the previous owner must have been disappointed when he destroyed this possibly beautiful patina, only to find the shoulders empty!

All comments are welcome!

Kind regards,

Mika
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2016  3:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice coin Mika, I'm really going to have to try and get at least one of these type, it would spark my interest more to have one in my collection.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2016  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice spade and interesting write-up. In my opinion, this coin is 100% genuine. Style is correct for a worn specimen, and the patina looks good. It is a shame about the patina. The patina on my specimen has been completely stripped.

I have seen this type in Hartill's book and among the offerings of various auction houses. I want to get one because of the parallel between this spade and the later round coin, but I am focusing on getting more types of spades than on getting more spade varieties.

Here is my example of the round coin you mentioned in your post.

Another-Warring-States-Square-Foot-Spade-Coin

Another-Warring-States-Square-Foot-Spade-Coin

My writeup on this coin:

https://goccf.com/t/259446&SearchTerms=Yuan


Quote:
As the end of the first semester draws nearer, so do my final exams unfortunately, which means less time spent on coins, and more on maths. Anyway, I thought I should show one more square-foot spade from my, rather limited, collection:


You must have short semesters, or you are on the quarter system. My finals aren't until December.
Edited by TypeCoin971793
10/11/2016 5:02 pm
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34418 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2016  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
great specimen Mika!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
United States
7066 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2016  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, quite nice, Mika. Thanks for posting the coin and educating us with the write-up!

Now get back to studying.
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orfew's Avatar
Canada
1269 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2016  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add orfew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I find these spade coins quite interesting but I know almost nothing about them.
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AnYangMan's Avatar
Netherlands
91 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2016  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks again guys!

That is a rather nice round coin, Thomas! An early round coin has been on my wish list for quite some time now, and I am currently in the process of getting one (hopefully). Although it is in a slightly worse condition than yours. The imprint on the reverse is indeed rather intriguing. Also interesting is that there are even specimens known that have a reverse impression, yet not of the same "Yuan" coin, but of the much rarer "Gong" type round coin, which shows us these two types at least circulated alongside one another during the same timeframe. If I remember correctly, I believe I saw Bruce Smith talking about this hoard on Zeno as well, and how they were readily available for $20 back in the day in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, the prices have gone up a little. Great write up btw!

Well, technically seeing the school year here in Holland is almost always divided up in four, all having a bunch of exams near the end. However, because this, if all goes according to plan, will be my last year of "high school", only the first and second are "real" quarters, with an exams at the end and such. So we, somewhat jokingly, call them our two "semesters". The third being reserved for practicing and taking our final exams (The SAT would probably be the closest term coming to mind, although it is mandatory). And when everyone else starts their fourth period, we either have an early break or are completely stressed out for retaking an exam.

Kind regards,

Mika

PS. I believe Steve Album had a couple of these Xiang Yuan spades for sale a while ago. Is there anyone here that has any experience buying from them and shipping it overseas? They often have lovely coins for sale, that I would love to add to my collection and they are one of the only auction houses that somewhat specialises in ancient China, but I am worried that the postage and import fees might drive up the price a little for me.
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 10/12/2016  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe Steve Album had a couple of these Xiang Yuan spades for sale a while ago. Is there anyone here that has any experience buying from them and shipping it overseas?


Yes to the first part of your question, but no to the second part (as I also live in the USA). I have been very happy with my purchases from Stephen Album. When I bought his Checklist of Islamic Coins, I even got him to autograph it for me!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2016  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That is a rather nice round coin, Thomas! An early round coin has been on my wish list for quite some time now, and I am currently in the process of getting one (hopefully). Although it is in a slightly worse condition than yours. The imprint on the reverse is indeed rather intriguing. Also interesting is that there are even specimens known that have a reverse impression, yet not of the same "Yuan" coin, but of the much rarer "Gong" type round coin, which shows us these two types at least circulated alongside one another during the same timeframe. If I remember correctly, I believe I saw Bruce Smith talking about this hoard on Zeno as well, and how they were readily available for $20 back in the day in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, the prices have gone up a little. Great write up btw!


Thank you for your kind words! If you buy one of these, make sure that you do not pay more that $90-100 as that is the fair market value for this type. Or, if you're patient, there are sometimes good deals to be had. I got mine for a little over $30 in a lot that included a bunch of rarer stuff. I won the lot of 8 coins for around $30 apiece, (which covered the stuff I knew was genuine), and had everything checked out by Roger Doo. The Dang Jin spade was the only questionable coin in the bunch. Moral of the story? Don't ignore lots. I have bought several lots of rare Chinese coins for under $50 a coin, kept what I wanted, and sold the rest for what I paid for the lot.

I have seen one of those Yuan coins with a Gong impression. It was not for sale at the time, but I thought it was quite intriguing.


Quote:
Well, technically seeing the school year here in Holland is almost always divided up in four, all having a bunch of exams near the end. However, because this, if all goes according to plan, will be my last year of "high school", only the first and second are "real" quarters, with an exams at the end and such. So we, somewhat jokingly, call them our two "semesters". The third being reserved for practicing and taking our final exams (The SAT would probably be the closest term coming to mind, although it is mandatory). And when everyone else starts their fourth period, we either have an early break or are completely stressed out for retaking an exam.


Ahh.. okay. The system here is quite a bit different. We just have two semesters that last from August to December, and January to May, with an optional summer semester.


Quote:
I believe Steve Album had a couple of these Xiang Yuan spades for sale a while ago. Is there anyone here that has any experience buying from them and shipping it overseas? They often have lovely coins for sale, that I would love to add to my collection and they are one of the only auction houses that somewhat specialises in ancient China, but I am worried that the postage and import fees might drive up the price a little for me.


I have not dealt with them before (but they did have a few lots I wanted but my money was tied up at the time), but I know that they are a world-class dealer that seems to offer high-quality, genuine stuff. Because of this, prices are a bit higher than they would be elsewhere. Also be aware that there is usually a 15+% buyers premium tacked onto the hammer price, plus $20 for international shipping. If you are ever looking for something in particular, just PM me and I can try to find it for you, usually for much cheaper.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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 Posted 10/13/2016  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also, be careful when buying lots. There are sometimes fakes sneaked in, or comprise a large portion of the lot. They do not offer returns, for obvious reasons. If you ever have any concerns, feel free to post them here.
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AnYangMan's Avatar
Netherlands
91 Posts
 Posted 10/14/2016  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I ended up paying a something like 72 bucks (65 euro) for my specimen, also a "Yuan", on an auction last week. As I said, it is in quite a bad shape compared to yours, although it was probably also part of some hoard. It only arrived two days ago, so I am still going through the process of authenticating it. The lovely folks over at Zeno seem to have made their mind up, but I would love to hear your input. I'll post it right away tomorrow.

Indeed, lots can be quite a good way of getting stuff cheap. The first Ming-knives I ever bought came in a lot of three, combined with two Thai Lats, perhaps better known as canoe-money. While Thailand is definitely not my main focus point, I did find them interesting and kept one of them. Sold the other for about half the lots purchasing price (nothing compared to that monster lot of yours though! Must have been quite a feeling finding out you won that). For me this works on such smaller lots, containing less valuable coins. I fear I am not yet ready on spending a rather large sum on a large lot of coins, unless I am 100% certain they are genuine (or at least the majority). Indeed, most auction house have a no-return policy on lots, but we will see. Thanks for the tip anyway!

Thanks for the offer Thomas! (although I first need to reach the minimum amount of posts needed to send a pm). The same goes for you of course, although the amount of Europe based dealers that might have anything of interest is rather low, it does always help to have an extra pair of eyes on the lookout. We do tend to have some good literature available here though.

Kind regards,

Mika
Edited by AnYangMan
10/14/2016 6:13 pm
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AnYangMan's Avatar
Netherlands
91 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2017  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So I haven't been very active on the forum the last couple of weeks, largely due to holidays, family, work and school. A lot of school to be honest. This weekend for example I had to hand in my "PWS", something I would assume is fairly similar to a pre-thesis, which I spent most of the holidays working on. But luckily, there was still some time for coins. Santa (or as we call him here, "Sinterklaas") must have some great contacts within the field of Asian numismatics, seeing as this newly acquired spade comes from quite a famous Dutch collector, who actually wrote one of the best books concerning Korean Cash coins. Once again, I believe this to be genuine (sharp characters and edges, natural patina, correct thickness, etc.) but who knows ;).

Another-Warring-States-Square-Foot-Spade-Coin


The reason I am posting this here, is basically because the write up fits perfectly with this spade, seeing as both are of the same type! The quality of this spade, particularly the amount wear on the characters, is a fair bit better than the first one presented in this topic, unfortunately however the feet are a little damaged, plus a decent casting pit/hole. Like the first, this too has seen a little cleaning, although way less harshly, and the nude copper has started to repatinate again in certain spots. In the first post in this topic I stated that the reverse of these Xiang-Yuan spades, as well as several other spades, often show other characters, which are could be identified as being mintmarks. Most of the times these were simply numbers (spades with numbers between 1 and 20 are known), yet in some rare occasions other characters were used (Thomas has quite a neat example of this if my memory serves me correct). It is believed that these mintmarks represent offices or casting-furnaces within the mint, in a similar fashion as is done on some of the Ming-Knife reverses. Other, less likely, theories suggest that these numerals actually represent the year within the reign of the current King/Duke that the spade was made. Although there are quite a few problems with this theory. For example, how does one explain the other, non-numerical characters, used? Anyway, on my spade, in the top-right corner, a single, albeit faint, character can be seen, kinda like an upside-down "T". For me, this is the first spade with a reverse character, so even though this inscription is already represented in my collection, I'm still pretty darn happy with it. It most likely is just the number one (Yi, represented by the horizontal stroke) with an additional vertical stroke, for some reason. The same vertical stroke is added on most other numerals too, and I'm afraid we will never know the reason why.

Anyway, please do comment if you feel like it ;)

Kind regards,

Mika

Ps. Question for Thomas that might be interesting to have publicly on the forum as well; In your write up on this coin (although on a much, much rarer calligraphic variety, with an equally interesting reverse character), you seem to place the city of Xiangyuan in the tiny state of Zhou, the watered-down fiefdom which clan once gave its name to the entire dynasty, but became nothing more than a clan of puppet kings with virtually no real power. While I certainly don't want to disagree with you, it seems that my sources mention the state of Zhao, instead of Zhou. Simply a typo? Or are my (historical) sources wrong?


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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 01/08/2017  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice addition to your collection! Too bad about the feet, but that probably made it quite affordable, right? But the characters are what really matter here, and you are correct in saying that this new coin is quite an improvement in that regard. And congratulations on finding one with a character on the reverse. You had been wanting one for some time (sorry about the one I bought), and you are correct that mine has a reverse character ("Da").


Quote:
In the first post in this topic I stated that the reverse of these Xiang-Yuan spades, as well as several other spades, often show other characters, which are could be identified as being mintmarks. Most of the times these were simply numbers (spades with numbers between 1 and 20 are known), yet in some rare occasions other characters were used (Thomas has quite a neat example of this if my memory serves me correct). It is believed that these mintmarks represent offices or casting-furnaces within the mint, in a similar fashion as is done on some of the Ming-Knife reverses. Other, less likely, theories suggest that these numerals actually represent the year within the reign of the current King/Duke that the spade was made. Although there are quite a few problems with this theory. For example, how does one explain the other, non-numerical characters, used?


Another theory I'd like to throw out about these reverse inscriptions are that they are mould/impression identification or placement numbers. That would explain the mysterious "left" and "right" inscriptions on Ming knives. Whether this was done or not, I don't know. It is worth considering though.


Quote:
Ps. Question for Thomas that might be interesting to have publicly on the forum as well; In your write up on this coin (although on a much, much rarer calligraphic variety, with an equally interesting reverse character), you seem to place the city of Xiangyuan in the tiny state of Zhou, the watered-down fiefdom which clan once gave its name to the entire dynasty, but became nothing more than a clan of puppet kings with virtually no real power. While I certainly don't want to disagree with you, it seems that my sources mention the state of Zhao, instead of Zhou. Simply a typo? Or are my (historical) sources wrong?


I feel it was just a typo. I packed my Hartill, so I can't double-check. You are more well-read on the historical context of these coins than I.
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
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 Posted 01/08/2017  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Congrats on the pick-up, Mika. Good to see Sinterklaas delivered such a nice gift. Hanukkah Harry is being pretty good to me this season.

Best wishes with the school work.
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AnYangMan's Avatar
Netherlands
91 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2017  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks again guys, it's always nice to see that a coin and its write-up are appreciated!

Reading back your original write-up, I think it indeed is a typo. Hartill attributes it to Zhao, and I believe even Coole does so. The Zhou (Chou) state, centred around the royal palace in present day Luoyang, which was called WaNGCheng (The King's city) back then, also wasn't even close to the Zhang-he river. So I'm guessing it was a typo.

About the reverse characters: I feel "your" theory is also one of the more plausible ones. This theory could be easily tested, at least for Ming-knives: just look for their moulds. If all share a common character, they of course can't denote mould placement. I can't say I have seen too many moulds, let alone a complete one, so I'm not sure. Most are either fractured, unreadable or of dubious origin. I guess only good old archaeology can prove or disprove this. Unfortunately, these Chinese archaeological journals, nor any other Chinese sources for that matter aren't easy to come by for me, let alone read them. I do feel a that the "da" reverse present in your collection is quite interesting, I mean it is not even listed in Coole!

Oh, and Thomas; don't feel bad for buying your Xiangyuan on the WAGonline Auktion. We divided them fairly ;). I really wanted that Zhong-du Spade (the patina of my spade here actually reminds me a little of the one on this coin) or at least the Lin-spade from this auction. too bad I lost out on both. Ah well, something else will pop (and has popped) up. Whenever I'll have the time to write a neat little write-up, I'll post them on the forum.
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