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Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 09/24/2017 07:31 am Here's the latest.... Sankara Varman AD 883-902 Utpala dynasty Sankara Verma was the second of the Utpala dynasty. He succeeded his father Avanti Verma in A.D. 883. He Spent a lot of time on foreign expeditions and conquered the kingdoms of Kangra and Gujrat.But soon lost all ambition to expand the empire and became greedy using all types of extortion to accumalate wealth, hoarding money and treasures alike.He was killed on expedition and is said to have been shot in the neck by a mountaineer, and died in A.D. 901. I know there isn't that much interest in this series but I've been doing quite a lot of research and will post a thread soon hopefully showing what these coins would've looked like if minted on flans big enough to accomodate the full die/punch design,describing the symbols used....with some questions If anyone has any of these coins it would be great to see them so please post as this may well help further research ..Thanks Saludos Paul Report this Post to the Staff
Kamnaskires Pillar of the Community United States 7066 Posts	Posted 09/24/2017 11:04 am Great update, Paul, and congratulations on the latest addition to the collection. What a great, informative thread. Looking forward to seeing the expanded imagery as it would appear on a fuller flan. Thanks for the education! Also, there is a good thread on this series at worldofcoins. Page one of the three-pager is here: http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/in...ml#msg221056 Edited by Kamnaskires 09/24/2017 11:54 am Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 09/25/2017 04:43 am Thanks Bob, And thanks for the link,really interesting and has helped alot Nearly finished the research on the obverse so will post this in the next week and I'm halfway through the reverse. Saludos Paul Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 09/26/2017 6:31 pm I've been spending some time trying to figure out the lay out and symbols on these coins.I'm going to start with the obverse...Here goes.. These copper coins known as Kaserah or Punchshi normally come it at around 18mm in dia and weigh a hefty 6 grams but I feel the flan is a lot smaller than the punch and die and I've never seen one that has accomodated the full design.Hopefully I'll be able to show you what I think was the full design of these coins.The coins I'll be using as examples are from the Utpala and the first Lohara dynasties. Utpala dynasty was a Hindu kingdom which ruled over the Kashmir region, the first ruler being Avanti Varman AD 855 upto the infamous queen Didda Rani in AD 1003 The first Lohara dynasty were Hindu rulers too the first ruler being the nephew of Didda, Samgrama in AD1003 and finshed with Harsa in AD 1101. No one is really sure which side is obverse or reverse and it doesn't have any effect on this research so for ease of explanation I'll stick with the norm but I'll add that some descriptions on the net are the other way around. Lakshmi (Ardoxsho) the goddess seated with rulers legends left and right...<b>Obverse</b> The ruler, king or queen, standing sacrificing at an alter.................<b>reverse</b> I'll start with a common coin of Didda Rani from the later part of the Utpala dynasty showing us what most coins show,give or take abit, and what most people see... <span class="three"><b>First lets look at the Obverse</b></span id="three"> The arms of the godess have now been replaced left and right of the main body with the legend of the ruler in this instance Sri Didda as seen below. Either side of the head of Lakshmi there is this symbol.At first I thought this symbolised the sun as I had only seen it to the right of the head and fitted nicely with the painting below but after further study found there are 3 of these and so I'm pretty sure they are lotus flowers.The coin above shows this but quite worn,here are some examples from other coins..I've also noticed that the size of dots can vary a little,the central one being sometimes bigger or the same as those around it.. Next the head..In the picture below we can see her headress adorned with jewels and surrounded with an aura this external form can be seen on the coins here's some examples. On these coins Lakshmi is depicted sitting on a lotus stem, right leg folded under and left leg hanging.Here you can see the pink legs, red robes and green lotus stems.The smaller 3rd and 4th photos show the 3 lotus stems quite clearly and bottom right shows another group of stems or a flower. As we look at the coin to the left of the legend there is another flower this is not seen very often as the coins are rarely offset enough. Taking all these factors into consideration I think the die and punch diameter was around 24mm. Here's my image of what I feel the coin would have looked like if the flan accomodated this dia. Next I'll be posting the reverse and this has a few surprises. Saludos Paul Report this Post to the Staff
Kamnaskires Pillar of the Community United States 7066 Posts	Posted 09/26/2017 9:02 pm A great post, Paul! Wonderful research with very helpful illustrations to support your points. Thanks for the work you've put into this. So interesting to see what the imagery across the full die looked like. Looking forward to seeing your work with the reverses! Report this Post to the Staff
drnsreedhar Pillar of the Community India 1995 Posts	Posted 09/29/2017 03:58 am @Palouche Congrats.You have done an excellent work researching on these coins. Happy to have had a chance to support your efforts. Please do continue this pace. Information on Hindu Kings of Kashmir is scattered and scanty. If possible, please consolidate them and publish in a single work. I shall be always there to support with whatever I can find. Thanks. Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 09/29/2017 5:48 pm Thanks Bob and drnsreedhar your comments are really appreciated. The reverse of the coin shows the ruler, be it king or queen,standing and sacrificing at an alter.. Here's the same Didda Rani coin from the previous thread showing the reverse.Next to it there is a Toramana coin,he ruled in the 5th to early 6th century this shows us how theses coins have become more and more abstract over hundreds of years,but giving me the clues necessary to decipher these more abstract forms. First I'll start with the head.You can see from the examples below the ornate headwear. Next to the left of the ruler at 8 and 10 oclock we can see the same two flower forms as on the obverse. On the right of the ruler running from 1 to 3 oclock there is a "Shri" usually only the edge of this is seen, if at all, and the full design is only visible on coins heavily offset to the left.The coin below I've just bought and was VERY important in clarifying not only this but actualy shows the outer edge of the full design with a ring of dots.This has given me a true radius to work from and confirms a diameter of 24-25mm. Under the Shri there is the legend either "deva" or "gupta". The centre of the coin shows us the clothes worn.Also left and right of the body there are 2 fish like forms these are in fact the rulers arms and at the bottom 2 spindly legs. If you look at the Toromana coin above you will see at 8 oclock what seems like an octopus shape this is the sacrifice at the alter.The coin on the left below shows a Toramana II. Circa AD 540-570. Æ Stater.The abstract equivalents are next to it.The octopus shape are the flames from the alter. Here's my image of what I feel the coin would have looked like if the flan accomodated this dia. Thats it so far! I hope you've enjoyed the journey and now when you see one of these "hit hard" coins you'll look at them in a different light. <font color="red">Again I'll ask if anyone has any of theses coins please post them as I'd love to see them.</font id="red"> Saludos Paul Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 09/29/2017 6:31 pm Here they are together. Report this Post to the Staff
Kamnaskires Pillar of the Community United States 7066 Posts	Posted 09/29/2017 9:26 pm Excellent update, Paul. A wonderful reconstruction. What a lucky find that off-center reverse coin was. It really helped fill in the gaps. To think that the die images are 24-25mm, so much larger than the flans. Such an odd thing, making the images so large, knowing in advance that a good percentage of the imagery would not be transferred to the coin. Thanks for the thread...fascinating stuff. Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 10/02/2017 05:35 am Thanks Bob really appreciate the comments. Quote: Such an odd thing, making the images so large, knowing in advance that a good percentage of the imagery would not be transferred to the coin. I agree! Only thing I can think of is that the base metal cost was too high so they reduced the flan size. Something else I've come across is the weight of the slightly earlier coins seem to have been lighter closer to 5 grams and the later seem to have be heavier closer to 6 grams.This completely contradicts my first thoughts so I'll look into this more. Thanks for your email..I haven't so I will Saludos Paul Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 12/10/2017 04:21 am Been busy,,heres my set as of now,,lots of newbies Some quite hard to get! Avantivarman The first ruler of the Utpala dynasty and is said the most peaceful reign in the history of Kashmir. 3 grandsons of the infamous queen Diddarani, Nandigupta,Tribhuvanagupta and Bhimagupta all of whom she had tortured and killed in one way or another. Sussala 1st and 2nd reign coins the latter being quite rare. And finally Jayasimha who died after a reign of 26 years. I've noticed that a lot of the rulers names can be spelled differently also depending on the reference source the dates of each ruler can vary slightly so I'll upgrade the information as it becomes available. Saludos Paul Report this Post to the Staff
Kamnaskires Pillar of the Community United States 7066 Posts	Posted 12/10/2017 08:50 am That's a great looking group shot, Paul. I'm an admirer of focused, thematic collecting like this, especially when it adds to the scholarship on particular series - like Finn did with the Gadhaiya paisas earlier in the year. Well done, and great thread. Congratulations on the growing collection. Report this Post to the Staff
Palouche Pillar of the Community Spain 2752 Posts	Posted 12/12/2017 03:27 am Thanks Bob..really appreciated... So far its been a great journey and I've learnt soooo much! But the exciting thing is there's still a long way to go.. If anyone has any types of these coins please post them, as even the most common ones can show aspects that have not been seen before.. Saludos Paul Edited by Palouche 12/12/2017 04:13 am Report this Post to the Staff
Coconutjoe Pillar of the Community United States 1475 Posts	Posted 12/12/2017 03:43 am Very nicely done. This is outside my interest but very interesting and informative to learn Report this Post to the Staff
drnsreedhar Pillar of the Community India 1995 Posts	Posted 01/03/2018 1:32 pm Dear Palouche:) You have a mind blowing collection of them there! Congrats! Report this Post to the Staff
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