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 Replies: 28 / Views: 2,905 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
The 1792 Half Disme is not that rare. There are probably a little over 300 of them that have survived. Many are quite beat-up, but there some very nice examples. The book I referred to earlier has 185 pieces listed and pictured. Dealer Anthony Terrinova told the researches that the 1792 Half Disme is too common to record all of the 20 to 30 he has handled. I don't quite agree with that, but I would not call this coin a major rarity. Over grading a coin so that you can get more money out it is wrong. That's what's happening in the market now. Grade-flation is supporting higher bids in auctions by people who don't know how to grade. They are pushing prices to levels that will not last, and it's going to hurt the reputation of the hobby. I've been in numismatics for over 50 years. I've aeen this before, and it's not a good thing. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11896 Posts |
I don't believe rarity is the primary driver of value for this coin. It is the provenance that links it to a founding father of our nation and an early president at the founding of our nation. A 1913 Liberty nickel is rarer. Doesn't have the same historical significance. Everything else you said seems to be on the money. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/04/2017 5:40 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
288 Posts |
Yes this is a 6 figure coin. It is graded MS63 by NGC and sold for $333,5000.00 back in July of 2005 by Heritage. Bill is right about the rarity. It only lists an R4. I think the emotional provenance appeal of this coin continues to grow, because an NGC graded AU55 example sold for $824k+ in 2015 that had a gash on the cheek!
Bill what other time in your career has this grade flation occurred?
Thanks!
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
I think the emotional provenance appeal of this coin continues to grow, because an NGC graded AU55 example sold for $824k+ in 2015 that had a gash on the cheek! Do you have a link to that auction or sale? This PCGS MS67 sold for $494k last January ( https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1251-5563.s ) $824k would be close to the highest price ever realized for this issue and that was a MS68 piece. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11896 Posts |
This is a PCGS au50 specimen offered currently for $155k. Seems very similar to the coin in the original post for less. Is this one also overgraded? Maybe. I would buy this one for the money. Some day... Both these coins also have tremendous eye appeal, which to me trumps rarity every time. I don't care if everyone else has one as long as I like mine.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/04/2017 7:48 pm
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11896 Posts |
Quote:Do you have a link to that auction or sale? This PCGS MS67 sold for $494k last January ( https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1251-5563.s ) $824k would be close to the highest price ever realized for this issue and that was a MS68 piece. The SP67 Starr collection coin realized over $1.4 million in 2013. https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half...bnail-071515The Cardinal collection MS68 specimen was purchased for $1.5 million in 2007. Sold by Steve Contursi in a private sale. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/04/2017 9:20 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:The SP67 Starr collection coin realized over $1.4 million in 2013. https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half...bnail-071515The Cardinal collection MS68 specimen was purchased for $1.5 million in 2007. Sold by Steve Contursi in a private sale. I said "close to" the highest price. This piece, a PCGS OGH in MS66, sold for $793K in 2013 and is the one of the highest prices ever realized for this issue. https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...view/3-2GXIK Here's a PCGS MS66 that sold this year for $493k, a top 10 all-time result. https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1251-5563.sAn NGC AU55 is typically a $150k coin based on records available. If an NGC AU55 with a gash on the cheek brought $824K then it sold for MS66 money which would be most unusual. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Quote:
It's actually a pattern, but still.
Let's see ... Mintage at least 1,500, plus two or three hundred more if additional pieces really were made at the mint in the fall of 1792. Among the 300 or so survivors all but 20 of them are in circulated condition, usually WELL circulated condition. Thomas Jefferson handed them out as tips to servants on his trip from Philadelphia, the U.S. capital at the time, to his home in Virginia in July 1792. George Washington in his 1792 annual message to Congress called them "a small beginning in coinage." None of those factors say "pattern" to me. Patterns are experimental pieces that almost always made in limited numbers. Few of them saw much circulation, and no government offical, much less the President of the United States, have called pattersns "a small beginning in coinage." Having the president say that makes it it official. There were 1792 pattern coins like the silver centered cent and the disme. Washington did not mention them. The 1792 Half Disme was not a pattern. It was the first regular issue U.S. coin under the Constitution of the United States. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11896 Posts |
I think the scholarship has changed since Judd put it in the pattern category. Seems like more numismatic scholars consider it a regular issue - the first one - now, but this view is far from unanimous.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11896 Posts |
Kind of weird that I completely forgot that I participated in this discussion in 2017. But it turns out that I bought this coin four years later. In 2021, I thought I was buying a 1792 Half Disme and was excited about doing it, but didn't realize that coin was this exact coin. Life is more than just a little weird. The discussion when I bought this coin 4 years later is here: http://goccf.com/t/409222IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
09/06/2023 03:29 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2003 Posts |
WOWZA! only in my dreams!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
959 Posts |
It's exciting to even see that coin. She's a beauty, but I'm not buying MS - looks like a little wear at eyebrow and in hair. Also, BTW, she needs to get her hair done - it's a mess. You'd think somebody would have had a brush before they did her bust.
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Replies: 28 / Views: 2,905 |
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Posted 04/04/2017 5:22 pm
