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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,670 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Most recent Naumann lot included a small lot of 10 Greek coins, but curiously only 9 were imaged in the auction photo. Lo and behold, the bag contained an itty bitty little thing: AV or EL, unknown 5mm, 0.35g (1/48 stater?) Obv: Blank, rounded Rev: Crude square punch  Before the Lydian lion, electrum was used in small weights for trade and to pay soldiers, primarily in Lydia and Ionia where it was abundant. It was a nuisance to constantly have to weigh and certify such mediums of exchange, so the Lydian kings started stamping the coins to certify and guarantee them - the birth of true coinage as we know it. It seems fairly clear that this tiny weight was only struck from behind with a square punch, and the weight would seem to roughly correspond to half of the archaic Ionian standard 1/24th stater coins (0.68g) from about 600-550 BC. Could it be true? I have yet to find a match to this "coin" type at this weight standard. A few almost-matches are on ACSearch, but they seem to mostly have sharp, deep reverse punches. Edited by Finn235
02/02/2018 03:01 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5029 Posts |
Well I am interested to hear what others think. Certainly would be an exciting add to your collection!  |
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
Wow!, very early coin back to the time that coinage first started. Congrats.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
That seems like a great addition if only for the story, congrats.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
I'll bet that was a jolt seeing a little nugget that missed being described. I can't figure out which lot you are referring to in Naumann 61. Nothing is short on the count in the pics I was looking at. Whatever. Maybe this was compensation for shorting the lot in the description.
The math sounds right for a 48th. However, in the reverse picture am I seeing some flaking on the high points of the edge? Ditto with the scoring on the obverse edge. I hope not, but you will want to make sure it is not a gold fouree. OTOH that might account for the lack of a well defined incuse square punch. Good luck on checking it out, and I hope for the best for you.
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1194 Posts |
you made your deal of the year .
for the weight : the stater weights between 14 - 17 gr , so it is 1/96.If I remenber well , it is the smallest weight they made for coins .
the obverse : some electrum issues are with a plain surface or simple striations on the main side
rev :there is a punch sharing of your coin and a lion type coins of Alyattes-Kroissos .There is a difference in square punch for the value .For the biggest value , the punch was divided in two parts , for smaller values , there is only one part . I don t remenber exactly the sizes concerned.Coins with plain and or striated surfaces and coins carrying lion types circulates together and are therefore contemporary as hoard evidence shows .
So I think you can be sure you have a real coin , one of the smallest ever made and one of the oldest . albert
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Moderator
United States
34413 Posts |
Quote:
some electrum issues are with a plain surface or simple striations on the main side Ok very interesting--I did not know this. Are they listed in Bodenstedt's book? (Which I don't have...) "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1194 Posts |
For this kind of coins , the main catalogue is Weidauer , I believe .My 3 early Lydian coins have a Weidauer reference , my early Greek golden coins Bodenstedt . albert
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Moderator
United States
34413 Posts |
Ok interesting--my electrum coins all reference Bodenstedt, with a few also referencing HGC (the Handbook of Greek Coins series of books). Good point though that my coins are Greek rather than Lydian.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1194 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6130 Posts |
Thinking on this a bit more, is there any data on the thickness of these early blank coins? I ask because my coin is rather thin (i.e. about as thin as say a silver obol of the same size and a century later), but the photos of other coins have always given me the impression that they are quite thick; essentially spherical.
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Moderator
United States
34413 Posts |
Quote:
any data on the thickness of these early blank coins? I can't answer that since I don't have one of these, but I just measured a Hekte of mine with both sides having features in relief. It is about 4.5 mm at the thickest point and 3 mm from flat field to flat field. How does your compare? "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Unfortunately I don't own calipers, but I'm eyeballing it as about 1-1.5mm thick... it is a bit scyphate.
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Valued Member
Canada
402 Posts |
what an education I am getting by "listening in" on this conversation
thanks
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Moderator
United States
34413 Posts |
@finn, stack some US cents next to it--each one is 1.5 mm tall. That should ballpark it for us.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
It would be a good idea to examine it with an X-Ray Florescence instrument (XRF), checking it for proportions of trace elements, as well as silver.
Do the same for a known genuine electrum coin of a slighly later period, and compare results.
This information would lend a lot of credence to the idea that this particular piece may well be a genuine pre-coin.
The weight is certainly sending the thinking in the right direction to support this theory.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,670 |
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Posted 02/02/2018 09:14 am
