Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer 300,000 items to help build your collection! Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Unknown Arabic | Ottoman With Die Clash?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 1,110Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2008  6:58 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Can anybody identify?

Image: Unknown-Arabic-|-Ottoman-With-Die-Clash? ArabicUnknown1_Obv.jpg
46.95 KB

Image: Unknown-Arabic-|-Ottoman-With-Die-Clash? ArabicUnknown1_Rev.jpg
60.44 KB
Edited by Sap
06/18/2008 10:13 am
Pillar of the Community
KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2008  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice old hammered coin!
I can't ID, but I think the second pic is upside down.
Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2008  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks Ottoman Turkish, but there's some kind of brockage effect happening there. The reverse design is partially appearing, backwards and incuse, on the obverse, partly obliterating the toughra.

Mot sure if it's a "mint error" or post-mint. Only way I can think of to make it a mint error is with very severely clashed dies.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
United States
645 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2008  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DCH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like 1223/16, Constantinople. Mahmud II, probably a Para(~13mm).
I suspect it's post mint damage, but a clashed die is possible.
Pillar of the Community
wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2008  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like coin was struck twice. Once for each side.
You can see the date reversed and mirror image on one side.
Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2008  04:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A double-striking won't impart a backwards-and-incuse design on a coin. There are three ways to get all or part of the design on a coin backwards-and-incuse:

1. A brockage. This is where a normally struck coin isn't removed from between the dies before the next blank is placed on top of it; the first coin then "becomes the die" for the second coin. The resulting coin has a normal, undistorted side and a backwards-and-incuse version of the same side on the other side. No trace of the "normal" second side is visible in the incused area, because the coin never saw that die. The top pic on this web page shows a nice example of a brockage.

2. A die clash. This is where the dies smash together without a blank in between them; if neither die actually breaks from the impact, then parts of the obverse design end up on the reverse die, and vice versa. Coins subsequently struck with those dies end up with "mixed sides": obverses with traces of reverse design, and/or vice versa. The fourth pic down on the above linked site shows a die clash.

3. Post mint damage, colloquially known as a "vise job". This is where two normal coins are squeezed tightly or hammered together, partially transferring their designs onto each other. Counterfeiters sometimes make a "vice sandwich" with two real coins squeezing a blank slug placed between them; such a coin will bear a superficial resemblance to a real coin, only everything will be backwards-and-incuse.

To me, your coin looks most like #2.

(Edited for mising leters.)
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Edited by Sap
06/16/2008 05:07 am
Pillar of the Community
wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2008  11:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
THANX for the technical information. This has been more than helpful and I do appreciate you taking the time to inform me.
When I examine the coin and compare to your descriptions, you seem to be right in the events that created this coin.
Do you happen to know how common this practice was and how long would it go until the problem resolved?
Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 06/18/2008  10:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure. The quality of coins produced by the Ottoman empire went up and down alongside the fortunes of the empire itself. Which generally wasn't too good for most of the 19th century, with ethnic troubles, provinces demanding autonomy or seceding, European wars and other interference, and such like. In difficult economic times, the primary concern would have been to churn as many coins out as possible, and who cares how pretty they are. "Mint errors" would be common in such times, to the extent that error-free coins are worth more than normal coins with errors.

The reign of this ruler, Mahmud II, was just such a turbulent time. There were at least ten different series of coins during his thirty-year reign (1808-1839 AD).
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 06/18/2008  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's amazing how coins follow the times so closely.
I think someone should create a curriculum that traces coinage versus history. I'm sure I would find that interesting.

Sap, THANX again for the info.
  Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 1,110Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.36 seconds to rattle this change. Forums