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Akragas Ae : Fake Or Not?

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ancient67's Avatar
France
330 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  12:21 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ancient67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello,

Someone told me on this forum that he had doubts about the authenticity of this coin. An Akragas AE, 6 g, 20 mm.

I bought it in a normally reliable auction house, Lanz numismatik.

What do the others think? Should I send it back?
Akragas-Ae-:-Fake-Or-Not?
Akragas-Ae-:-Fake-Or-Not?
Rest in Peace
Crazyb0's Avatar
10197 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Who was it that said fake? I would take Finn's and BobL's opinions as fairly accurate. If I recall, didn't one of them even mention the possible engraver/assayer? I myself don't really know, but it sure is an intriguing coin!
Edited by Crazyb0
08/11/2018 2:00 pm
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34423 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ancien67, can you please post pics of the edges at the two locations that are a bit flat (3 and 9 o'clock on the obv)?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Valued Member
ancient67's Avatar
France
330 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancient67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am sorry, I canot at this stage because I didn't receive the coin yet. I should receive it on Monday
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While this article deals with struck Akragas fakes made by a specific forger one interesting observation I believe is relevant here.
The forger began with a die that rendered the eye of the eagle primitive and "pigeon like"
The other observation I think we can all make is the remarkable quality of the patinas and encrustations added on to these modern fakes.
It scares the bejesus out of me
https://numismaticfakes.wordpress.c...oins/page/5/
Valued Member
ancient67's Avatar
France
330 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  6:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancient67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, no one else has the least idea? You are normally more reactive, it must be the month of August!
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United States
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 Posted 08/11/2018  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to agree
The silence around here is absolutely deafening
Usually my 'obnoxious' opinions are able to stir up a bigger stink than a 5AM presidential tweet from the .........
"porcelain throne room"
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've been looking at this coin for sometime now and can't really make up my mind on it. IMO it is a struck coin with very little wear and sharp details and a nice looking patina. What bothers me is that it looks too nice. I would expect to see more wear on the high spots like the wings, but they are very sharp. I don't really see any signs of tooling unless it was done by an expert. I hope it is genuine it is a really nice looking coin. I just can't say either way.
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ancient67's Avatar
France
330 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancient67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The eye is a good point, especially when compared to the Hemilitron (of course larger and more beautiful). I would say that, now that you have raised my attention and suspicion, the shrimp would be another point. It is very poorly carved out in comparison to other coins. It looks like a mere stick : no movement at all...

Let's see if someone else wakes up... Personnally, I am going to bed!
Akragas-Ae-:-Fake-Or-Not?
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
United States
7066 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2018  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To add my 2 cents: Prior to this, I'd never seen one of these in which the shrimp/crayfish was depicted without a serpentine shape. As you say, ancient67, it's sticklike here - hardly a prime example of Classical Greek art. That, in combination with FR's stated concerns, are enough to give me some pause. But, then, I don't know much about this series.
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United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2018  2:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ignoring the issues I/we see with the eagle, hare and what appear to me to be two sprue points
I have retrieved an image off of wildwinds of another tetras showing the crab
Rather than belabor the point and use them all I simply picked the first one listed
Akragas-Ae-:-Fake-Or-Not?
Now your 'specimin'


Akragas-Ae-:-Fake-Or-Not?
The creature below appears to be a squid ?

and the similar type which you provided

Akragas-Ae-:-Fake-Or-Not?

The legs of the crab are poorly rendered and the crab lacks any truly lifelike characteristics. In fact it looks like a dead crab found on the beach
Stylistically ........ it stinks !

Once upon a time .........
Not too many years ago when this forum was smaller and more closely knit community .........
My skepticism (or anyone else's) about a particular coin would have set off a spirited debate among the members.
People were unafraid to voice opinions and we had a healthy mix of young and old, veterans and 'newbs'.
Some collected late Roman some collected Severan and some collected anything.
The opinions tended to be sober even if the member was not !
I remember a few enjoyable exchanges with one member who collected the so-called invasion folles of Lyon.
That was it
That's all the fellow collected ......... in between pints of Guinness !
Sometimes people would come and post the most ludicrous fakes imaginable and then get severely bent out of shape when told the "bad news". They stormed out the "virtual" door determined to go back to wherever it was they purchased the coin and commiserate with hucksters who told them whatever they wanted to hear
"Of course it's real ! And by the way my detector 'friend' just dug up a whole pot full of Julius Caesar denarii and is selling them for $75 each !"
But of late this forum too has come to resemble some sort of mutual admiration society. Comments range from magnificent to thanks for sharing.
No one dares question anything except the most ridiculous
Or comment on anything beyond the most rudimentary

To be honest .........
I am getting bored


As to this coin ?
It's a DUD plain and simple
Send it back


I myself have bought several coins from Herr 'Z'
I am satisfied 100% with the few purchases I made
He usually gets impressive prices which limits my interest !
That said
Any dealer that sells the impressive numbers of coins that several well respected dealers move out the door on a weekly basis is going to make mistakes. In fact that is one reason I enjoy spending so much time viewing their listings. Mistakes are made and bargains can be found.
But likewise any seller listing 1,000 coins per week will make mistakes regarding authenticity. It can't be avoided.
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maridvnvm's Avatar
United Kingdom
2100 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2018  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe it to be tooled.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2018  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But would you pay more than 10€ for it ?
That would include shipping of course !
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2018  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FR, it never hurts to be nice to people especially with all the anger and hate that is plastered all over the news and what we all encounter in our own lives. Though I do agree with you in some way, over the last few years we have seen a lot of new people come and going posting one or two coins and than never being heard from again. Discussions have been less and less and it has become and ID forum of, can you ID my low grade Roman coin? Believe me It has frustrated me to see the same low grade junk show up hear week after week. We are an open forum and everyone is welcome and we should help as much as we can and should encourage new collectors. So a word of praise is not out of line and may just be what is needed for a new collector to continue with the hobby.



Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2018  4:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trust me
I have sometimes gone to great lengths to assist some of the newer collectors that have asked me for opinions and or help
Remember Ben ?
When I was new here we engaged in conversations off board
He was young (17) and a bit naive
Like we all were when we began
He mentioned some 'wants' and I told him I had some culls of Claudius Titus Nerva etc and told him to take his pick ! In his childlike enthusiasm he wanted them all ! Seeing they meant so little to me I promptly packaged the whole lot and shipped them off to UK
The thrill he got from it was well worth the $12 it cost me to ship
Ben was helpful later when I asked for some assistance with some LRB's
His speciality
The comments that bore me have less to do with low grade 'junk' than expensive coins people post looking for praise and nothing else
I find more interest in ordinary bronze that is peculiar or special for some reason
Price has never impressed me
Nor will it ever
Pillar of the Community
United States
3443 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2018  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would add that I am grateful that another member gave an opinion to an honest inquiry by ancient67 !
This fellow has a coin which I am dubious of
He has accepted my opinions and asked for more from our 'learned' members and received mostly silence
This is unacceptable

While I differ from maridvnvm in diagnosis I believe we both agree that something smells like fish
Personally I felt from the beginning that I saw signs of tooling
But I believe the tooling was done on a cast piece to improve the image
Over which a fake patina was created

BTW at 6 grams this seems to be the lightest weight I can find for a tetras

Edited by FVRIVS RVFVS
08/12/2018 4:33 pm
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