1844 Go Pm 8 Reales - Counterfeit Or Real?

ncsuwolf74 Both coins are Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits. There is absolutely no doubt regarding this. Nice to run into another NC dweller on the forum.

Pauldog Sorry but PCGS simply lacks the expertise to authenticate Cap and Ray 8 Reales.

The obverse die (1844 G cap side) has a clash mark on most copies that links the two reverse dies together. In addition there is a third reverse that features a Go style eagle. These in turn are linked to a different obverse 1843 Mo ML. All together this is a very large family of decently made counterfeits that circulated well in the US.

Check the density of your coin and you will discover that while the average example weighs close to the correct amount the SG will be well under 10. Some are as low as 9. It is obvious to me that the counterfeiters were aware of the correct weight but were totally unaware that SG tests could easily expose their forgery.

The fact that many examples of this family are known with period US type cancellation marks places the age to a point of time before 1857.

I just dug out a couple pictures to show other matings involving these dies.

Here is an 1843 Mo ML that uses the eagle design I refer to as the "Beautiful Eagle".


Next is 1842 Zs OM that uses the eagle design I refer to as "Pierced leaf". Note that one cactus spine from the pad furthest to the right penetrates a laurel leaf and can be seen in the center of the leaf on high grade examples like this one.



For people who believe that counterfeits are not graded here are a couple examples.

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. I've read the board from afar and just now registering. My gut feeling told me this was a counterfeit without doing any tests on it, and this was confirmed by posting the pictures. As mentioned, I still wanted the coin because it is considered a "specialty" in my collection.

Regarding PCGS authenticating cap and rays, I always want cap and rays in an NGC holder. I own a Pittman coin that was graded at PCGS and I had it crossed at NGC.

Swamperbob. I am about an hour from you in Clayton. It is exciting to run into an 8 Reales expert/collector on the east coast. Most coin shops and coin shows look at you a little funny when you ask them if they have any in stock around this area. Most of my purchases are done at the auction houses or on ebay. Do you attend the USMEX convention?

Pauldog The person who submits a world coin to PCGS is the actual guarantor of authenticity. Only professional dealers can become members of PCGS and make submissions. It is taken as a "fact" that the submitter knows what he is doing. If a coin is later determined to be counterfeit - PCGS has the right to go back on the original submitter for compensation.

That may not be what the average party expects but that is often what happens.

NGC often will not certify 8 reales that are not in their database. In those cases, they have an appeal process to one of the "series experts". At one time for added compensation it was possible to have NGC send an 8R to Richard Ponterio for his opinion of authenticity. I know this to be the fact because I have done this.

ncsuwolf74 I agree it is nice to have a collector with similar interests nearby. We will have to get together and compare notes.

Regarding authentication of 8Rs, anyone who wants an opinion just ask. I will always do that - as long as I survive that is..

cableguy815 You say:


I checked with the 4 TPGs (the 4 acceptable to ebay) at the 2017 Winter F.U.N. Show and only ICG indicated that weighing foreign coins was done as part of an authenticity check (not always but sometimes). ICG is also the only TPG that will encapsulate and identify a Counterfeit Coin as it turns out.

cableguy815 I agree with you entirely. An accurate weight would eliminate many errors by the TPGs including 2 of the encapsulated 8 Reales I posted (based on comparable average weights for matching counterfeits). The TPG's do not do it because it is too time consuming. The most common answer.

I worked as a part time authenticator for several coin shops since I retired from the Telephone Company in 1997. I still do that on occasion as a call out service.

I also worked as a volunteer for ebay as a full time world coin authenticator. There I learned that it was absolutely possible to spot 95+% of counterfeits / forgeries from good photographs alone. I know that form of authentication is "frowned upon" but it does work as my bidding history with ebay would indicate.

The ebay job required considerable speed since I looked at a minimum of 1000 posts in the World Coin section ( ebay US) daily. I spent up to 8 hours doing that review, but I only targeted coins that were often forged not modern or common coins. When I had any suspicion, I slowed down and took my time (a few minutes). At ebay we did not have access to the coins nor their weight. We could and I did often contact the owner and asked questions (weight magnetism). To reject a coin required that we provide a specific reason to convince a majority of the voting members that the coin was bad (usually 3-5 votes).

When I am asked to authenticate a coin privately, I routinely weigh the coin on a 1/100 gram scale to start. I then check for magnetism. Then I do a visual microscopic inspection of all three die surfaces starting with the edge of the coin.

Then if any uncertainty exists, I perform a Specific Gravity measurement using a 1/1000 g balance. At this point I am usually sure of what I have 99+% of the time and I have spent no more than 10 minutes to do it.

So what should the average collector do?

Learn to authenticate scientifically for yourself.

Then follow the old adage to

Albert You say:




Do you have pictures of this item? I would like to see if I would have included the coin in my book or not. Unlisted in Gurney can point to a numismatic forgery, a simple casting, a damaged or altered original or anything else that I might not have listed.

I ask because 1780 is one of the years found on El Cazador and some people have tried to pass off these as Contemporary Counterfeits because they know the CC types bring more than shipwreck damaged coins from that particular wreck.

Regarding your 1842 Zs OM I am glad you see the differences.

If you go to the Heritage Auctions website and search in their archive for "1842 Zs Mexico" - you will get 16 listings. All are 8 Reales. There are 14 that display the Type 2 Eagle (square tail). Only one has the rare type 1 eagle (rounded tail). But if you were not looking closely and believed the descriptions as written, there is a SECOND RARE type 1 (rounded tail). However, this is a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit that Heritage sold for $59 as if it was genuine. To make matters MUCH worse they identified the coin in their description as the RARE variety the Type 1 (rounded tail). Here is the picture from their auction.



The tail is indeed rounded - but it is not genuine.

This is another Riddell family coin. The Riddell # 274 is a close relative to this coin and clearly uses some of the same die punches but BOTH dies are different. It is extremely common (for a counterfeit). I have seen a few hundred examples.

It is also another 5 second call. But only if you know precisely what an 1841 Zacatecas eagle punch looked like.

Why it ever got listed is quite frankly beyond me.

My caution is to always look at all the coins that you can find for a given year - do not presume that any coin in any auction is properly described.

This coin is also an exception to one of my "general rules" about counterfeits. The rule says that;


In this case just as in the case of your coin the counterfeiter, modeled his coin on the earlier type 1. To me this infers that it was part of a high output industrial operation who were making dies ahead of the time they were needed. They were in effect a private but illegal mint. Had they made the die in 1842 it is unlikely that they would have chosen a "round tail Eagle" coin for their model.

Albert The seller's description is informative as long as you know what he means by the terms he uses. He said:


1. Contemporary Counterfeit (better stated as Contemporaneous Circulating Counterfeit) is a name typically assigned to those non-genuine coins that were intended to circulate alongside the genuine coins as monetary units in general commerce. The value may or may not be related to actual intrinsic metal value and includes non-genuine examples of fiat coinage. Contemporary is a word that causes confusion since contemporary often means Modern or at the current time. Coin collectors use it in the general sense of contemporaneous or coterminous circulation which means the counterfeit was made during the period of circulation of the genuine coin. For some types like the Portrait 8R or the Maria Theresa Taler that can mean a very extended period of time. The Portrait 8R was still used in general commerce in China until 1935, so it is possible to view an example of that coin made in 1930 as a legitimate CCC coin even though it would have been made 105 years after the last genuine Portrait 8R was made.

2. "Struck in lower grade silver" may not be a correct statement of fact. The 1842 Zs OM that you own was made over a period of time that covers several different potential alloys. Below are the primary categories of alloys seen in this family of counterfeits:

A. Cast or struck copies in grades of silver below 800 fine but normally exceeding 200 fine. These tend to be the oldest types seen in Riddell but they are scarce to rare in the family in question and were most likely melted long ago to recover the silver value. If your coin is actually low grade silver - you got a genuine bargain.

B. Struck Sheffield plate copies rarely exceed 200 fine in terms of total silver content but can approach a lower limit of 10 fine based on the thickness of the silver layer. Sheffield plate counterfeits made before 1835 used an almost pure copper core (technology introduced about 1780) and used onward until after the Civil War. Copper cores usually are associated with thicker silver plates to avoid wear through exposing a dark under-color. The technology can still be duplicated today but after German Silver was introduced in 1835, GS proved to be far superior metal for either the core or the entire coin.

C. Cast or struck base metal coins that are plated with a silver amalgam paste or some form of silver color like paint. These tend to have a grainy or flakey look in protected areas and can be identified by microscopic examination. These are very rare within this particular family. There are surviving copies struck in copper on which no trace of any plating remains - also VERY rare.

D. Sheffield plate struck copies silver over a German silver core starting 1835 are rather common.

E. Solid German Silver struck copies. These predominate as the method of choice after 1835 and MOST of the surviving members of this family are solid GS. There was no incentive to destroy these coins since they have a zero intrinsic value. They were kept in junk boxes and survived in great numbers.

F. Silver electroplating was introduced after 1840 but did not replace Sheffield plate as predominant until the 1850s or later. The plate produced is 100% pure silver which is unlike the Sheffield plate which used a variable thickness silver alloy near 900 fine. Electroplated coins are darker in color and lack the "soft warm whiteness" seen in 900 fine alloys. Silver electroplating occurred after the strike and is very thin. I have observed some members of this family that have been electroplated over an underlying silver coating to extend the period of circulation. These are not common but are not of significant extra value because they could be plated today to take advantage of a higher price. I would therefore view them as altered or damaged. I have never observed a version of any copy falling into this family that was originally made using an electro-plate directly on a base metal core.

3. DP Zs22 old die style (Rare) is a reference to the book "Resplandores" by Mike Dunnigan with co-author credit given to J.B.Parker the owner of the most complete set of Cap and Ray 8Rs ever assembled. Hence DP. The Zs22 is an example of the DP numbering system which begins with the mint mark and a number starting at 1. It changes with each variety. The method does not allow for new intervening varieties and there is no consensus on what to call these. The old die style refers to the "round tail" eagle or Type of 1841 as noted by NGC on slabs. Dunnigan rated the genuine coin as rare, the counterfeit version is far from rare.

4. The final statement "several raised "scratches" plus some actual scratches" is what you typically see when examining these counterfeit coins under magnification. Many of these have what appear to be raised lines and at the same time open scratches with exposed internal metal. The raised scratches are actual scratches that were made before the coin stopped circulating. Circulation after a GS coin is scratched often makes the old scratch look like a raised line (a die scratch). However, I have observed many of these and when magnified to 100X or more all the examples I have examined are simply scratches that have been closed by the effects of circulation. I see this as a clue that these GS coins were scratched tested over a fairly long period of circulation. I suspect that the seller is simply stating what he sees not what actually happened to the coin.

Hope that helps to evaluate the description of the owner.