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 Replies: 50 / Views: 4,143 |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
I believe it was someone connected with PCGS that said that there's no such thing as a Saint that doesn't show WEAR from stacking.
Guess what, folks? That means there's nothing better than an AU-59, not that you should give MS grades to coins with WEAR.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Circulation is different than evidence of stacking or even drawer scuff,bag marks etc. ,, while stacking can and should keep a coin from a 70 designation they are still mint state coins and should be graded as mint state even if that means an MS-60 because of the damage from stacking . circulation means just that circulated as in the coin has been used in commerce and should be graded in the circulated grades AU and below . Im not sure who said that but someone associated with a TPG should know better ,, MS is MS even if the coin has damage either from contact with other coins after being struck at the mint or mis handling by collectors such as stacking . |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1130 Posts |
Well, if we follow BigFredd's definition of circulation, there will be no MS coins since any massed poduced coins are slid down a chute into a hopper after they are struck. So does this slide make it circulated ? Does contact with another coin in a roll make it "rub" ? All those big silver dollars they put in canvas bags... does the friction and contact disqualify them from an MS designation ?
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
The way things work now, coins are not graded by whether they are circulated or uncirculated (which would be impossible to prove, short of documentation of what happened to the coin after it left the dies), but by whether they show "evidence" of circulation. Like wear.
As long as that is the standard, any coin with wear is not uncirculated.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Of course, as evidenced by TPG, the standard is there is no standard. If there was, there would never be a reason to crack out coins and resubmit them. Gee, toned coins are hot right now, so the market would price them higher, and thus they get a higher grade. Then when the market changes preferences we have a bunch of coins overgraded by a few points that are now worth a few points under their true grade. And all because they weren't graded to standards in the first place. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Fred
Best I can tell you is take a look at several hundred mint sets , we know the history of these coins they were struck and packaged never circulated .
The coins are largely anything but perfect they have hits dings ,scuffs and all sorts of anomolous things which outside the packaging could be mistaken for wear(evidence of wear)but obviously not circulation wear ,, then you have to take into account the knowledge gained from looking at thousands and thousands of coins which have wear its the comparison of knowledge based on viewing many of each group that helps us to know circulation from mint state .
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Still doesn't make a coin with VF details MS.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Quote:Of course, as evidenced by TPG, the standard is there is no standard. If there was, there would never be a reason to crack out coins and resubmit them. Gee, toned coins are hot right now, so the market would price them higher, and thus they get a higher grade. Then when the market changes preferences we have a bunch of coins overgraded by a few points that are now worth a few points under their true grade. And all because they weren't graded to standards in the first place. This I agree with ! the TPG's have a large portion of responsibility to what is going on in the hobby today . collectors with deep pockets can assemble a set slabbed by the TPG's and never learn one thing about the coins they contain ,,they place their whole concept of collecting on the opinions of someone else . you ask them what the coin grades they point to the label and could not give you anything on a technical grade based on the standards which are printed . I collect raw coins ,which I believe is what the hobby is all about . |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
That's the way I see it. Slobbed coins were made for non-collectors and people who like collecting plastic. I buy them when they come in with other stuff, but otherwise I only use them for authentication and to get stuff overgraded.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1130 Posts |
Most people missed the grade because we didn't know about the weak strike but the TPGs got it correctly (IMO) by grading it with knowledge of it. Also, aside from grading, they certified the authenticity of this key date coin.
Although not a substitute for knowledge, it is definitely a good tool to have.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
I didn't miss the grade. I downgraded an ugly F to VG, just like the real grading books taught me. :)
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
Gee, toned coins are hot right now, so the market would price them higher, and thus they get a higher grade.
That's not true with todays standards. I have seen overgraded toned coins from a few years ago, true, but resubmit those today and they will get the grade they deserve.
Most people missed the grade because we didn't know about the weak strike but the TPGs got it correctly (IMO) by grading it with knowledge of it.
The same reason an 1880-s Morgan is held to a higher standard than an 1889-O. If all the Morgans came off the same press at the same mint, then a universal standard would apply........but that is not the case. Same as for coins from 200 years ago, they cannot be compared or graded the same as something made today. JMHO.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2254 Posts |
Quote:
Slabbed coins were made for non-collectors and people who like collecting plastic. What a healthy discussion. Very nice read. I do however need to take exception, not offense, to this statement. It is rare that I get to a coin shop or a show, and with all of the available software to "adjust" photos, I find myself collecting coins via the top TPG's in plastic. Whether I break them out or not, I am still a coin collector. I enjoy the hobby, and to each his own on what they collect. Some only collect commemorative's, so are they any less of a collector since they do not collect circulating coinage? I realize the TPG's may not be right on with their grades, but more often than not they are within a grade to what we think. Just my thoughts. Hadley brings up another great point with the changes in the minting process over the years. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
That's the way I see it. Slobbed coins were made for non-collectors and people who like collecting plastic. I buy them when they come in with other stuff, but otherwise I only use them for authentication and to get stuff over-graded.
Slabbed coins also protect new collectors and collectors new to a series from buying overgraded, dipped'n'stripped, puttied, thumbed, whizzed, lasered, at'd, cleaned and/or counterfeited coins from unscrupulous or uneducated dealers. From the amount of 'problem' raw coins I see on these very grading boards everyday, there is certainly still a call for TPG's. With time comes knowledge, and the self certainty of knowing what you are doing in these shark infested waters. Until that day arrives, mistakes can be very costly and can even cause some people to leave the hobby. That's not cool. TPG's, like'em or not, are here to stay and to be honest, have been quite beneficial to the hobby. JMHO.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Tell that to the guy who paid $2500 for $1500 retail in coins. Unscrupulous sellers don't become honest by selling slabs, they simply find new ways to be dishonest. The push for buying plastic holders so you don't have to know what you're doing has made billions for crooks who know all they need is a sealing machine to sell their overgraded crap, and billions more for other crooks selling legitimate TPGs for inflated prices. "But I bought TPG, I thought that protected me". Nice false sense of security there. Greatly increases the number of suckers investors who will buy coins. The collector who isn't willing to learn what he's doing isn't going to pay the extra cost of a slobbed coin, because he wants a bargain. So he'll cheerfully buy fake raw or overgraded TPG examples instead. He won't find out until he goes to sell, at which point he was quitting the hobby anyway. Ask the State of Ahia about their investment in TPG coins. News flash: Coins are not an investment. |
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Replies: 50 / Views: 4,143 |
First Page
Posted 08/20/2008 2:19 pm
